When making a left turn on a green arrow, do you line up or move to the front?
#26
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
I always line up
#27
Banned
Option: go to right* side of right lane of cross street, turn yourself facing the direction that lane is going,
So w hen the light turns green, you go with that direction..
*or left in Japan UK , Ireland , Australia, NZ, etc
So w hen the light turns green, you go with that direction..
*or left in Japan UK , Ireland , Australia, NZ, etc
#28
Disco Infiltrator
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,446
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3126 Post(s)
Liked 2,105 Times
in
1,369 Posts
I often split lane in my bicycle. And yes, I sprint like crazy, standing on the pedals on medium gears when the light turns green to get ahead of the traffic. I can get ahead of the traffic most of the time until reaching 20 mph. So before I hit 20 mph, I should have moved to the right-most lane.
__________________
Genesis 49:16-17
Genesis 49:16-17
Likes For Darth Lefty:
#29
Senior Member
Chinghis: In Atlanta, if you "cheat a little bit" at a light, you are guaranteed to be flattened by someone running the light. Even in my truck, if I'm the first one at a lighted intersection, when my light turns green, I always pause long enough to look right and left, because at every single light, at every time of the day and night, there's at least one car coming from at least one direction that will run the RED. The RED! Not the yellow! And in Midtown, it will be cars, pedestrians, scooters, cyclists … So I no longer cheat unless I can see in all directions and there's absolutely nobody else around.
#30
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 492
Bikes: Historical: Schwinn Speedster; Schwinn Collegiate; 1981 Ross Gran Tour; 1981 Dawes Atlantis; 1991 Specialized Rockhopper. Current: 1987 Ritchey Ultra; 1987 Centurion Ironman Dave Scott Master; 1992 Specialized Stumpjumper FS
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times
in
111 Posts
Chinghis: In Atlanta, if you "cheat a little bit" at a light, you are guaranteed to be flattened by someone running the light. Even in my truck, if I'm the first one at a lighted intersection, when my light turns green, I always pause long enough to look right and left, because at every single light, at every time of the day and night, there's at least one car coming from at least one direction that will run the RED. The RED! Not the yellow! And in Midtown, it will be cars, pedestrians, scooters, cyclists … So I no longer cheat unless I can see in all directions and there's absolutely nobody else around.
That's why I stressed visibility.
#31
Disco Infiltrator
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,446
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3126 Post(s)
Liked 2,105 Times
in
1,369 Posts
Roughly, you + bike = 150 lb/hp, or 13 hp/ton. An average car has about 100 hp/ton. Sprint if you like.
__________________
Genesis 49:16-17
Genesis 49:16-17
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,893
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1062 Post(s)
Liked 665 Times
in
421 Posts
I tend to "take the lane" when turning left at a light. Drivers know there's only one reason for a cyclist to be in that lane, so it's the most predictable. It doesn't take me all that long to get out of the way, especially if there's a bike lane on the street that I'm turning onto. But it's always situation dependent, and every intersection is its own beast.
Likes For Gresp15C:
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
#34
Disco Infiltrator
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,446
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3126 Post(s)
Liked 2,105 Times
in
1,369 Posts
Likes For Darth Lefty:
#35
Senior Member
I get in line with the other cars or mover to the front on the right side if there's enough room. Depends on my mood. Either way, most car drivers are oblivious - checking their Twitter feed or yakking away on their phones.
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,893
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1062 Post(s)
Liked 665 Times
in
421 Posts
The worst case I've seen is somebody is in the left turn lane but has decided that they actually plan on going straight through, so they gun it when the light changes to get ahead of the other cars. I've seen it often enough for it to be a "thing" to watch out for, like the possibility of a right hook.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Treasure Coast, FL
Posts: 987
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Supersix EVO 3, 2015 Trek 520, 2017 Bike Friday Pocket Rocket, 2022 Moots Vamoots Disc RSL
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked 267 Times
in
140 Posts
I've done both, but more often move to the right of the front car now. I used to line up, but if I'm more than four or five cars back, I can't go fast enough to keep up with the drivers. Then cars behind me are racing to go around me to make the light, and that scares the hell out of me. So now I line up to the right of the front car and make the widest left turn. It looks like I'm cheating, but I've found it to be much safer. I'll also get the driver's attention, like what Papa Tom said, and left them know what I'm doing.
Sometimes, if I'm the first or second vehicle, I'll line up and make the wide turn as soon as possible. The third or fourth vehicle that is immediately behind me is not worried about making the light and is less likely to try to shoot around me.
Sometimes, if I'm the first or second vehicle, I'll line up and make the wide turn as soon as possible. The third or fourth vehicle that is immediately behind me is not worried about making the light and is less likely to try to shoot around me.
Likes For Bassmanbob:
#39
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,369
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6222 Post(s)
Liked 4,222 Times
in
2,368 Posts
Going to the front of the line, and then making the widest left turn you can, is documented to be the safest way to make a left turn from the light. Don't wait in the line. The cagers coming up from behind are focused on the license plate and tail lights of the car in front of you. They literally will not, indeed cannot, see you and your bike in between. You're outside of their depth of field, so you're out of focus... and blurry, unexpected objects that aren't being actively looked at get edited out by the brain's image processing software. Almost nobody ever gets hit on purpose, which means that "getting in the way of the cars" is by far the safest thing you can do in almost every traffic situation. If they honk and flip you the bird, you know that they saw you.
--Shannon
--Shannon
As to what motorists are focused on, it would take a particularly inattentive (close to brain dead) motorist to not notice a bicycle in front of them on a left turn...especially if the left turn is at a light. Motorists are not just “focused on the license plate and tail lights of the car in front of [them]” at a light to the point where they won’t see a bicycle in front of them. At a light controlled intersection, there is usually sufficient time for the motorist to look at other things than just the “license plate and tail light” of other cars.
I agree that bicyclist should “get... in the way of the cars" but the best way to do that is to be right behind the last car in line. Being next to the first car in line is not “in the way”. It’s about as far out of the “way” as possible. If a cyclist is between the “license plate and tail lights of the car in front of [them]”, the chances of being seen are far greater than if the cyclist is out of the driver’s line of sight.
Frankly, I don’t filter when going straight. If a line of cars has passed me, I don’t want to give them the chance to pass me again. I can also control the flow of traffic behind when the light turns green so that I can clear the intersection before moving off the the right. And, since I don’t filter, I don’t have to worry about motorists turning right in front of me if the light turns green.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute:
#40
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times
in
1,286 Posts
I do whatever I feel is the safest thing to do, and I don't let other people dictate to me how I should ride in traffic...OPs question is impossible to answer because there are too many variables out in the real world...My advice is to develop your own riding style and forget what others are doing.
Likes For wolfchild:
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Humboldt County, CA
Posts: 832
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 405 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 430 Times
in
286 Posts
It's been demonstrated that being behind a stopped car is quite dangerous. Target focus is the primary reason... you're not the target, the car in front of you is, so instead of getting seen you get sandwiched. Source was MSF. Applies even more so to bicyclists, cuz we're even smaller, so even more likely to get edited out of view by target focus.
It's also one of the worst ways to get hit, in terms of injury.
Yeah, it annoys drivers cuz it's unfair. S'ok. My life is more important to me than the momentary feelings of strangers.
--Shannon
It's also one of the worst ways to get hit, in terms of injury.
Yeah, it annoys drivers cuz it's unfair. S'ok. My life is more important to me than the momentary feelings of strangers.
--Shannon
#42
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,369
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6222 Post(s)
Liked 4,222 Times
in
2,368 Posts
It's been demonstrated that being behind a stopped car is quite dangerous. Target focus is the primary reason... you're not the target, the car in front of you is, so instead of getting seen you get sandwiched. Source was MSF. Applies even more so to bicyclists, cuz we're even smaller, so even more likely to get edited out of view by target focus.
It's also one of the worst ways to get hit, in terms of injury.
Yeah, it annoys drivers cuz it's unfair. S'ok. My life is more important to me than the momentary feelings of strangers.
--Shannon
It's also one of the worst ways to get hit, in terms of injury.
Yeah, it annoys drivers cuz it's unfair. S'ok. My life is more important to me than the momentary feelings of strangers.
--Shannon
If “target awareness” is so important that a motorist misses a bicycle (or motorcycle) sitting in front of them at a light, how aware of the target do you think a motorist is going to be if the cyclist is out of their line of sight and in a place where they don’t expect another vehicle to be? Motorcycles aren’t encouraged to go around motorist at green arrows to avoid being between two automobiles. That makes no sense from a traffic point of view.
Finally, while some individuals may be as focused on the car in front of them as you say, I doubt it is a large proportion of drivers. Anyone that focused is going to cause lots and lots of accidents and won’t be driving.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Layton, UT
Posts: 1,606
Bikes: 2011 Bent TW Elegance 2014 Carbon Strada Velomobile
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 626 Post(s)
Liked 701 Times
in
418 Posts
Roughly 5% of motorcycle accidents are from the motorcycle being rear-ended while stopped:
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...ses-30330.html
I couldn't find accurate statistics on bicycles that line up in traffic.
Like I said above, sometimes I line up, sometimes I wait in line. It just depends on the situation, and I have been riding bicycles and motorcycles long enough that I have a pretty good judgement about these things. There is no single right answer to any situation. I've even illegally split up between cars on my motorcycle to avoid being rear ended once. The car managed to stop before hitting the car, but would have sandwiched me had I not moved.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...ses-30330.html
I couldn't find accurate statistics on bicycles that line up in traffic.
Like I said above, sometimes I line up, sometimes I wait in line. It just depends on the situation, and I have been riding bicycles and motorcycles long enough that I have a pretty good judgement about these things. There is no single right answer to any situation. I've even illegally split up between cars on my motorcycle to avoid being rear ended once. The car managed to stop before hitting the car, but would have sandwiched me had I not moved.
#44
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,369
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6222 Post(s)
Liked 4,222 Times
in
2,368 Posts
Roughly 5% of motorcycle accidents are from the motorcycle being rear-ended while stopped:
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...ses-30330.html
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...ses-30330.html
I couldn't find accurate statistics on bicycles that line up in traffic.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute:
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Yep. If there's any traffic that I'm nervous about this is how I do it. Às a bonus it automatically puts me at the front of the line.
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,891
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6973 Post(s)
Liked 10,975 Times
in
4,695 Posts
I line up at left turn lanes. And in response to ShannonM ’s claim that a following motorist won’t see me, well, that seems implausible given the rather bright red flashing light that is always on the back of my bike. And like cyccommute , I prefer evidence over unsupported claims.