digibud

While I don't ride in goathead territory often I have done some riding there and can tell you without equivocation that gatorskins will puncture from a goathead easily. GP4000s easier...but goatheads are pretty nasty. Marathon Plus is probably the best tire and will feel a lot nice than using Mr. Tuffy in my opinion but a good tubeless tire with an adequate amount of filler juice is the best of both worlds. One time in Albuquerque i got home and found 4 goatheads embedded in my tires. I pulled all four and spun my tire around, seeing each hole weep some juice for a few moments and then...nothing. Done. I lost so little air I didn't even have to pump my tire up. I have Bontrager R3 tires which aren't quite as supple and nice as 4000S, but much better than Marathon Plus. If you choose to go Tubeless you may have to get new wheels. Mtn bike tubeless can be done with many wheels not made for tubeless but not so with road wheels. For thorn country I would highly recommend tubeless. Just be sure you are familiar with changing a tire if you get a bad hole...using a tube when needed, etc etc.

Reynolds 

I used tuffies some years ago and they did puncture tubes in a few months. The overlapping edge wore out the tube. They weren't totally effective against "external" punctures, so I took them off. Don't know if they improved them afterwards.

noisebeam

There are frequent goat heads round here up to 2' from curb. 3'+ there are none - they get swept aside from the wake of passing motor vehicles. Ride there & go flat free for thousands of miles.

momo15

I live with goatheads, and gatorskins weren't much better than gp4000's. I'm going to try some Stans in the tubes and see how that works, but I'm not holding my breath. If you live around goatheads, you might just need to get good at changing the tire.

DrIsotope

Does anyone have any experience with both the Gatorskins and the Gator Hardshells? I've been riding the Hardshells for over 1000 miles now, and don't notice them to be slow rolling at all-- my avg speed has gone up notably since I switched to them. And as a resident of the goathead capital of the world (I rode by a median strip over half a mile long and about 15' wide, and every square inch of it was covered with our old friend tribulus terrestris) and don't have a single ride where I'm not pulling 2-3 of them out of a tire, so I'm not willing to trade the flat resistance for +1mph.

If the Hardshells are as slow as the Gatorskins are supposed to be, that just makes me happy. Managing +16mph on 700x28 Hardshells on +30 mile rides seems pretty good now.

Drew Eckhardt 

Relative rankings don't determine how fast you are. Watts do.

The other carries the rest of the weight, at the same Crr, so you can scale to match the total.

Riding Gatorskins instead of GP4000s costs you 15-20W at 20 MPH, which can be the difference between suffering and a pleasant ride or running out of power after 10 minutes not an hour

Flatbroke

I was going through 2 tubes a day and multiple patches this summer due to goat heads. I hate the things. I had 3 flats on a Monday and 5 on a Wednesday. I was carrying 6 C02 cartridges. But no pump. I bought a pump and switched to Removable valve core tubes and use orange seal. Have not had a flat since. I had newer gator skins on too. Getting flats on my commute home 50 miles was becoming more expensive than driving. Edit *** If you get a flat with orange seal it does make a mess inside the rim though. a buddy got one on a ride and it slung every where

bassogap

I'm stunned to read these opinions on liners....I've never used them, but I have suggested them to more casual riding customers of my shop. I had no idea about the damaging tubes issue....Very interesting!

dagray

Goatheads are a big problem here where I live in Boardman, OR. My solution was to go to Schwalbe tubeless tires... no flats so far, and I have had to pick goatheads out of the tire a time or four.

LesterOfPuppets

I don't recall ever having the edge-wearing-a-hole-in-the-tube issue with Mr. Tuffies and I've been using them since the mid-'90s.

I put 'em in uncut, then ride 'em for a week or so, then pull 'em out and cut to fit (the overlap leaves a nice cutline to go off of) I cut 'em a little short, so there might be 1/8" unprotected. I blunt the new cut edge with sandpaper, or just by rubbing it on the sidewalk.

Stuff still gets through them, and you'll wanna watch for glass, thorns, radial wires so that you can pull them outta the tire before they burrow through the Mr. Tuffy.

Clement STrada 28mm 120TPI with a Mr. Tuffy are as flatproof as Armadillos, but ride much better.

GuyDebord

THIS!
Go tubeless, use orange seal and either a hutchinson or schwalbe tire. This is your best bet.

dagray

Maxxis Padrone are also great tubeless tires. I got the Schwalbe tires (700x23mm) as they didn't have the Maxxis tires in stock. At the LBS I deal with the owners use both, and they like them (each has their own preferences).

at my weight (360lbs) I actually can ride the Schwalbe 23mm tires comfortably and I only inflate them to 110psi (these have a max of 125psi).

DrIsotope

I ran Schwalbe Ones for about 2000 miles, and never experienced a goathead-related flat. I did however get flats from glass about half a dozen times (and I define flat as having to stop and put air in the tire-- I got the "Stan's Sprinkler" on many more occasions.) The ride is so good because the rubber is so soft. The durability of the Ones compared to a "flat resistant" tire is essentially incomparable. I have had zero punctures of any kind on my Hardshells, in over 1500 miles.

So if your flat risk is purely goathead or other small sticker related, tubeless can work for you. If broken glass or other road debris is common, tubeless will serve you no better than any other tire. I'd love to be back on tubeless (for that ride quality,) but there are no good "endurance" tubeless tires, and the current offerings are waaayyyy too expensive. I got both of my Hardshells for the price of a single Schwalbe One. Frankly, going to tubeless to save money on flat tires is like getting a motorcycle to save on gas. It just doesn't work.

PhotoJoe 

Thank you all for the insights. New wheels just aren't in the budget right now, so tubeless is out....for now. Probably in the future, though. I may go to a more durable tire, but for now, I just added Stan's to each tube. We'll see how that goes. Figure I can handle an $8 experiment. If this doesn't work, on to plan B. I'll definitely be using this thread as reference in the future though.

dagray

Why would you need new wheels? my tubeless tires mounted to my clincher wheels.

PhotoJoe 

I thought you needed specific wheels. So, I'm wrong about that, too? Huh! I learn a lot around here.

dagray

Most tubeless tires mount to most clincher wheels (there are a couple exceptions that the tire manufacture will usually list).

here are some specs on the Schwalbe One tubeless https://www.biketiresdirect.com/prod...less-road-tire you will see it mounts to a clincher wheel.

you will need the valve stems that mount to the wheel, some rim tape, and some sealant, but once I switched to the tubeless tires I was able to not have to change tubes after ever few rides due to punctures either caused by goat heads, or pinch flats.

Yes the tires are more expensive, but the ride quality between these and the Continental tires I was running is incredible. On new pavement they just glide and it takes very low effort for me to get moving over 20mph where I put out considerable effort on the Continental tires (and Continentals are great tires, I have been riding them for years). The tubeless feel better in corners, and they seem to smooth out the rough roads around me (many are chip seal).

Initially when I got back into riding last year I bought a Raleigh Revenio in 60cm, but had to replace the back wheel with a 32 spoke wheel due to my weight (I kept the factory wheel). When I got the Orbea I gave the Raleigh to my oldest son. When I went tubeless I took the Raleigh factory wheel and put the cassette off of the replacement wheel on it; I then took the 32 spoke wheel and had the cassette off of the Orbea wheel and one of the Continental tires mounted on it for use on the trainer, and finally I put an Ultegra cassette on the Orbea wheel and had the tubless tires mounted to that wheelset.

On regular clincher tires (folding and wire bead) I was needing a 700x25mm tire running at max pressure (120psi on the Continental tires and 130psi on the Vittoria tires that are on the Raleigh), but the Schwalbe tubeless tires are 700x23mm and I run them at 110 (their max psi is 125) for a very nice ride.

Schwalbe do offer the tire in a 700x25 and 700x28 as well as the 700x23. Amazon.com has the Schwalbe One for around $55.00 per tire.

SpeshulEd 

Be careful doing this with road tubeless. It's much easier with wider mtb tires because you run at a much lower pressure. If you're trying to run a tubeless tire on a non tubeless wheelset and put too much air in the tire, you can easily blow the bead/tire of the wheel, resulting in Stans goo flying all over you...not to mention the loud bang and ringing ears you'll have for the next 5 minutes. And, worst case scenario, you ruin the bead on the wheelset, making it difficult to mount any tire on it.

DrIsotope

Yes, it will mount to a clincher wheel, but it won't mount the way it's supposed to. UST rims have a second hump in the channel that holds the bead of the tubeless tire, so the bead is secured on both sides. If you have a blowout with a tubeless on a clincher wheel, the bead will come completely out of the rim, dropping the rim to the ground, and if you're turning at all, put you on the ground as well. With the bead hook on a tubeless wheel, the tire will stay seated even at 0psi (like a car tire) and I know this because I've done it (by forgetting to top off sealant, getting a slow leak, and riding about 10 miles on a completely flat front tire.)

Lastly, as a guy who has run both the Schwalbe One and the Gator Hardshell in 700x28, yes the One is more comfortable and more grippy-- but not that much. The benefits of the One are not offset by the cost, and the flat-proofing of the One isn't even in the same league with the Hardshell. If you want a fast, race-level tire with great ride quality, then the One is an excellent choice. So long as you recognize you're on a race-level tire, and can expect perhaps 1,200 miles out of a rear. It took 1,200 miles to wear the mold line off of a Hardshell. As (I think) I've mentioned before, it's not really fair to compare the two tires against one another, but I'm an idiot, and tried to run the two under the exact same set of conditions. The Ones were not suited to the task, while the Hardshells are.

And I'm not bashing the Ones in any way-- they were fantastic, and tried to withstand everything I threw at them. But I can't afford to replace my rear tire every 6 weeks. It's not sustainable.

HazeT

You might also consider going tubeless with Stan's no tubes sealant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTlZvOVG8zs

The guy can roll it over a bed of nails and still ride home after that

johnyguy

Did you say 360 LBS?

dagray

Yes I did. I am 6 foot 3 inches tall and am undoing 15 years of a sedentary lifestyle and beating my type two diabetes.

When I had to go on insulin in December 2012 I weighed 340 pounds and with in a few months was up to 400 pounds. I started walking a mile a day in March 2012 and kept putting on the weight. I started changing lifestyle, got on Invokana and cut my insulin a little, and then I started riding and was able to cut my insulin in half (I am now down from 78 units per night to 38 units per night). My weight is now hovering around 360 pounds sometimes as much as 365, and sometimes as low as 357. It has taken me a little over a year to lose the weight, but I am continuing to ride and it is helping.

I went from being able to barely ride 1.5 miles round trip to riding a 25 mile course of the Tour de Cure in under a year. In fact the Tour de Cure ride was 2.5 hours total time and two hours moving time at 2200 feet higher elevation than where I live.

I was 175 pounds when I graduated high school in 1988, and 225 when I got out of boot camp in 1988. Too many years of a sedentary lifestyle put on the pounds.

I have changed my diet substantially (oh I still allow treats once in a while), added exercise to my week, and am getting way healthier (BP down from 150/90 resting to 120/75 resting rate).

This was today's ride https://www.strava.com/activities/415081677 This year I have over 750 miles on the bike, and since I started really trying to hit a weekly goal of 30 miles per week in September 2014 I have accumulated over 1000 miles in the saddle. I know it isn't impressive to some of you who get that mileage in a week, but for an old fat guy like me it helps to keep me motivated knowing where I started and where I am now.

loimpact

Yes, definitely a cheap experiment!

Hey, your club ain't Santa Clarita Velo by any chance, is it?? (Just rode epic-ride with those guys 2 weeks ago)

PhotoJoe 

No. Not SC Velo. I've never, ever, put my name and "epic" in the same sentence!

I'm heading out on my first ride with Stan's. Hoping for good results.

2manybikes

I have seen a set of tire liners wear a hole in a tube. Don't remember the brand, there are three or four types that look like tuffies.
Some have a squared off cut on each end, this can wear a hole in a tube. Some have beveled rounded ends to help with this problem.
I have used Spinskins, they are lighter and are Kevlar. They really wear the inside of the tire. Also a big pointed rock pierced the side of an MTB tire even though I had Spinskins protecting the tread. Nothing is perfect. Old school is cut the bead off another smaller tire and put it in the other tire like a liner. Accordin to a team rider from the "Postal" days, they could only use a certain brand of tire, so that is what they did. He says the protection is incredible , but you lose about 1 mph. That's about what I found. I use tires with a built in Kevlar belt if possible. If not, I use tuffies. I'm in New England, I know nothing about goatheads.