Aerobars
09-14-16, 08:20 AM
#26
Senior Member
Awesome, thank you Queerpunk!
09-14-16, 10:28 AM
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
My son has done well in the TT over the years as a junior and we spent a lot of time tuning him - and still do. He thinks he wins more on position than power.
We will be trying to duplicate what is best for the track - pursuit. I'm thinking a slightly more upright position may be faster for the shorter distance.
Top pictures (black kit) are of a FELT with Turn-up stem option as well as different height stems. We tried several heights and his fastest is also slightly lower power we think. All higher position, higher power in theory less aero.
Bottom pic (USA kit) on the Shiv is after fitting. We used the spacers for arm rests and went to ski poles. Unfortunately he didn't have a lot of time in this position and raced only in stage races where he was going for the mountain jersey (which he got) so was a bit more casual with neck un-tucked/turtled. I think this is the most aero, but not his best speed. His elbows are closer to him.
We will be trying to duplicate what is best for the track - pursuit. I'm thinking a slightly more upright position may be faster for the shorter distance.
Top pictures (black kit) are of a FELT with Turn-up stem option as well as different height stems. We tried several heights and his fastest is also slightly lower power we think. All higher position, higher power in theory less aero.
Bottom pic (USA kit) on the Shiv is after fitting. We used the spacers for arm rests and went to ski poles. Unfortunately he didn't have a lot of time in this position and raced only in stage races where he was going for the mountain jersey (which he got) so was a bit more casual with neck un-tucked/turtled. I think this is the most aero, but not his best speed. His elbows are closer to him.
09-14-16, 02:17 PM
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,522
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1422 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
5 Posts
I used to have them way inside but finally said no more, I point my elbows at my knees and it hasn't seemed to change much for me.
09-14-16, 02:43 PM
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
His elbows are closer along the top tube/cockpit length, so more weight is on forearm pads (or elbow arm bend 87 degree vs 80 degree - making those numbers up BTW for illustration). When a rider is really putting out the power weight is taken off the arms and the forearms can be more forward. I am not set one way is better than the other, just as for him when races conditions changed we tweaked a bit as I had the parts to do that.
Sometimes we got it wrong and sometime right. An example as a junior (gear limits) he could gain speed coasting on a downhill. It was not reasonable to pedal in that section of the TT other than to spin up to speed, then coast down. That 0 torque situation resting on the forearm support more important. If the TT was just up hill, or on the uphill sections he could be higher for more power, and less weight on forearms.
On the track, more of those variable are removed. But I'd guess a shorter more powerful track effort could have the bars more in front. My kid's only recent track experience has been on aero bars on a less than ideal setup (borrowed) bike, so I'm not all that knowledgeable for the track.
09-14-16, 04:52 PM
#30
Lapped 3x
There's more to be gained by riding a good line in drop bars, then quibbling over aero position if there isn't much track experience involved.
09-14-16, 05:04 PM
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
The recent experience was TTT which was more about not dropping a teammate or getting dropped - and transitions. All were issues.
In an ITT track event is a good line anything other that closest you can to the inside below the sprinters line?
I guess I assumed the line thing was pretty clear. Where does the rider want to be if not there?
I agree that is important, just that the thread was on aero bars - so that and position was the focus of my post.
In an ITT track event is a good line anything other that closest you can to the inside below the sprinters line?
I guess I assumed the line thing was pretty clear. Where does the rider want to be if not there?
I agree that is important, just that the thread was on aero bars - so that and position was the focus of my post.
Last edited by Doge; 09-14-16 at 05:28 PM.
09-14-16, 05:15 PM
#32
Lapped 3x
My post was about aero bars too. If you can't hold a tight line with aerobars, but you can with drop bars, then what's the point of using aero bars? Why go faster if the increased distance is going to result in a slower time? The real testing you should do is see how he does with drop bars, then see how he does in aerobars. If he's faster in the aero bars, then focus on tweaking that position.
It's sort of like asking "What's the best cart?" when you don't even know if you'll be able to get a horse.
It's sort of like asking "What's the best cart?" when you don't even know if you'll be able to get a horse.
Last edited by taras0000; 09-14-16 at 05:28 PM.
09-14-16, 05:17 PM
#33
Elitist
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
Also, on the track, being in an uncomfortable, super-slippery, tight aero position may not work as well as an elbows-wide comfortable stance to more easily handle the transitions in and out of the turns and the inevitable (for newbies) dropping off of the track on the inside. All of which usually have newbies "letting off of the gas". This is all a function of experience.
Any rider new to the track will gain a lot by simply riding the track a lot. And if he's doing it in aerobars, riding a lot more...in aerobars.
When a rider's mind is free from thinking about mechanics, balance, etc...it is free to think about pacing, form, and breathing.
09-14-16, 05:44 PM
#34
aka mattio
The recent experience was TTT which was more about not dropping a teammate or getting dropped - and transitions. All were issues.
In an ITT track event is a good line anything other that closest you can to the inside below the sprinters line?
I guess I assumed the line thing was pretty clear. Where does the rider want to be if not there?
I agree that is important, just that the thread was on aero bars - so that and position was the focus of my post.
In an ITT track event is a good line anything other that closest you can to the inside below the sprinters line?
I guess I assumed the line thing was pretty clear. Where does the rider want to be if not there?
I agree that is important, just that the thread was on aero bars - so that and position was the focus of my post.
There's banking all around, so, if you go up the banking, you gain elevation, you lose speed. If you ride a steady line on a competition 250, even hugging the measurement line, you'll go "uphill" a little bit when you enter a turn - you'll lose speed.
Something called a Lucy Line is fairly popular - drifting to the sprint line in the straights, and having a gentle transition *down* to the measurement line in the turns. It's the 'waterline' of the track.
This is important in timed events, but it applies to mass start races - if somebody is good about using subtle changes in line and location, they can close gaps with less effort - they can save their speed a whole lot more. A good track racer, either in a timed event or a mass start race, will ride the transitions, feel the turns, and know how to use them wisely.
09-14-16, 05:45 PM
#35
Lapped 3x
09-14-16, 06:46 PM
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
I'll teach you some secrets: it depends on the track. For starters, the sprint line is about a meter outside of the measurement line. You definitely don't want to ride the sprint line all the way around the track - but I assume you were talking about the measurement line.
There's banking all around, so, if you go up the banking, you gain elevation, you lose speed. If you ride a steady line on a competition 250, even hugging the measurement line, you'll go "uphill" a little bit when you enter a turn - you'll lose speed.
Something called a Lucy Line is fairly popular - drifting to the sprint line in the straights, and having a gentle transition *down* to the measurement line in the turns. It's the 'waterline' of the track.
This is important in timed events, but it applies to mass start races - if somebody is good about using subtle changes in line and location, they can close gaps with less effort - they can save their speed a whole lot more. A good track racer, either in a timed event or a mass start race, will ride the transitions, feel the turns, and know how to use them wisely.
There's banking all around, so, if you go up the banking, you gain elevation, you lose speed. If you ride a steady line on a competition 250, even hugging the measurement line, you'll go "uphill" a little bit when you enter a turn - you'll lose speed.
Something called a Lucy Line is fairly popular - drifting to the sprint line in the straights, and having a gentle transition *down* to the measurement line in the turns. It's the 'waterline' of the track.
This is important in timed events, but it applies to mass start races - if somebody is good about using subtle changes in line and location, they can close gaps with less effort - they can save their speed a whole lot more. A good track racer, either in a timed event or a mass start race, will ride the transitions, feel the turns, and know how to use them wisely.
09-14-16, 10:37 PM
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
So on aero bars... mentioned on a post above...
Thoughts on elbows together closer for the purpose of rolling the shoulders?
Thoughts on elbows together closer for the purpose of rolling the shoulders?
09-15-16, 12:48 AM
#38
Lapped 3x
If you want to roll the shoulders easily, then a ski bend with the grips rolled outwards will help. So they look like a "Y".
Rolling the shoulders isn't necessarily better. It works for some, hinders others.All you can do is test different positions to see what works for the individual, as eyeball aerodynamics can only get you so far (or make things worse).
If you have access to a PM, then you can do a lot of testing on a trainer (with different stems, risers, pad width,...) to see where power starts drop off or improve, as well as where discomfort/comfort starts to hinder/help. This will give you a good idea of what not to bother with. The same PM can then be used to clock speed at a given power output. These don't need to be done near race speed. 75% is a good area, as it allows good control, as well as not being too taxing as far as testing in the same session goes. Record stack/reach/width measurements for each position and rank them according to which is most aero(greater speed vs lesser wattage). Then during a different session, start with the most aero position and do max efforts in it to see if the position is sustainable, if not, move to the next position,...
If actual track time is limited, and pursuit is being prioritized, them doing stuff like this is quite easy, as it won't take much track time to figure out what works (ideally only two sessions at about an hour apiece). If the stack/reach/width positions are recorded and kept, then tweaking can easily be done as one gets more comfortable with steering in the bars at speed on a track.
Rolling the shoulders isn't necessarily better. It works for some, hinders others.All you can do is test different positions to see what works for the individual, as eyeball aerodynamics can only get you so far (or make things worse).
If you have access to a PM, then you can do a lot of testing on a trainer (with different stems, risers, pad width,...) to see where power starts drop off or improve, as well as where discomfort/comfort starts to hinder/help. This will give you a good idea of what not to bother with. The same PM can then be used to clock speed at a given power output. These don't need to be done near race speed. 75% is a good area, as it allows good control, as well as not being too taxing as far as testing in the same session goes. Record stack/reach/width measurements for each position and rank them according to which is most aero(greater speed vs lesser wattage). Then during a different session, start with the most aero position and do max efforts in it to see if the position is sustainable, if not, move to the next position,...
If actual track time is limited, and pursuit is being prioritized, them doing stuff like this is quite easy, as it won't take much track time to figure out what works (ideally only two sessions at about an hour apiece). If the stack/reach/width positions are recorded and kept, then tweaking can easily be done as one gets more comfortable with steering in the bars at speed on a track.
09-15-16, 09:29 AM
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
But I don't see the line thing as an issue. When he was warming up for the TTT on aerobars last year at the Carson track he was able to stay pretty much on the black line or inside it. There was really no discussion of line or how to ride.
Throw Back Thursday...
I found this old clip.
09-15-16, 10:01 AM
#40
Elitist
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
A word of caution:
- All road TT stuff may not apply on the track.
- All track TT stuff applies to the track.
They are similar but different. Focus on referring to track racers.
This advice applies to all track stuff including drafting, passing, pulling, sprinting, what roadies consider "sprinting" (haahahaha), etc...
Seriously, though. Track is considerably different.
- All road TT stuff may not apply on the track.
- All track TT stuff applies to the track.
They are similar but different. Focus on referring to track racers.
This advice applies to all track stuff including drafting, passing, pulling, sprinting, what roadies consider "sprinting" (haahahaha), etc...
Seriously, though. Track is considerably different.
09-15-16, 10:04 AM
#41
Elitist
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
One major factor is the fact that on the road, you can easily adjust your gearing to get to an optimal cadence and torque. On the track, you can't do that.
So, if you are gonna roll a big gear to the finish, you have to lug that big gear from 0kph up to the cruising speed...and not spend too much glycogen doing so
So, if you are gonna roll a big gear to the finish, you have to lug that big gear from 0kph up to the cruising speed...and not spend too much glycogen doing so
09-15-16, 10:12 AM
#42
Lapped 3x
A word of caution:
- All road TT stuff may not apply on the track.
- All track TT stuff applies to the track.
They are similar but different. Focus on referring to track racers.
This advice applies to all track stuff including drafting, passing, pulling, sprinting, what roadies consider "sprinting" (haahahaha), etc...
Seriously, though. Track is considerably different.
- All road TT stuff may not apply on the track.
- All track TT stuff applies to the track.
They are similar but different. Focus on referring to track racers.
This advice applies to all track stuff including drafting, passing, pulling, sprinting, what roadies consider "sprinting" (haahahaha), etc...
Seriously, though. Track is considerably different.
09-15-16, 10:58 AM
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
What is different? Specifically in an aerobar discipline what does a skilled roadie on aerobars need to learn for being on the track on aerobars?
I think the differences are (and am asking real track folks to add and correct me)...
-You can take a line not having to worry about pot holes or things to dodge.
-The time in position is generally smaller and the power is higher
-Not dealing with inclines and decents so position can remain the same, no reason (or ability) to coast
-Wind direction and drag is mostly at a low degree yaw and mostly relative to speed
09-15-16, 11:09 AM
#44
aka mattio
In context of this thread on areobars where others posted pictures of road TdF pros...
What is different? Specifically in an aerobar discipline what does a skilled roadie on aerobars need to learn for being on the track on aerobars?
I think the differences are (and am asking real track folks to add and correct me)...
-You can take a line not having to worry about pot holes or things to dodge.
-The time in position is generally smaller and the power is higher
-Not dealing with inclines and decents so position can remain the same, no reason (or ability) to coast
-Wind direction and drag is mostly at a low degree yaw and mostly relative to speed
What is different? Specifically in an aerobar discipline what does a skilled roadie on aerobars need to learn for being on the track on aerobars?
I think the differences are (and am asking real track folks to add and correct me)...
-You can take a line not having to worry about pot holes or things to dodge.
-The time in position is generally smaller and the power is higher
-Not dealing with inclines and decents so position can remain the same, no reason (or ability) to coast
-Wind direction and drag is mostly at a low degree yaw and mostly relative to speed
Standing starts
Single, fixed gear
Higher cadences
Above-threshold time trialing
Holding a precise line at the risk of lost speed
Exchanges on the banking
I mean, in general, it's not rocket surgery. There are differences, and you seem to be into the details of the matter. But you and your kid have probably gotten plenty of experience and I think you'll be able to go to the track with your eyes open and figure out what it involves.
09-15-16, 11:51 AM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
As you noted and I tried to show - he/we are advanced enough to be focusing on detail. I was not meaning for this to become a track vs road discussion. I acknowledge all those other things between road and track and a bunch of other stuff I don't know about are different. I'm trying to get that setup sooner than later and have parts, and could be loaned parts and could buy parts.
I want to know how the aerobar / drop position would be different than on the road, and why. Mainly what the best setup for pursuit on the track would be. Are there track specific pursuit bars I should look into?
Input on these things and anything else related to aerobars / their position and body/torso due to the bars is appreciated. Things including and not limited to...
Extension types and why - ski poles in a Y to roll solders was suggested and current setup.
Fore/aft pad position as well as height.
Curious if the pelvic angle is more acute or open.
I want to know how the aerobar / drop position would be different than on the road, and why. Mainly what the best setup for pursuit on the track would be. Are there track specific pursuit bars I should look into?
Input on these things and anything else related to aerobars / their position and body/torso due to the bars is appreciated. Things including and not limited to...
Extension types and why - ski poles in a Y to roll solders was suggested and current setup.
Fore/aft pad position as well as height.
Curious if the pelvic angle is more acute or open.
09-15-16, 12:16 PM
#46
Elitist
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
As you noted and I tried to show - he/we are advanced enough to be focusing on detail. I was not meaning for this to become a track vs road discussion. I acknowledge all those other things between road and track and a bunch of other stuff I don't know about are different. I'm trying to get that setup sooner than later and have parts, and could be loaned parts and could buy parts.
I want to know how the aerobar / drop position would be different than on the road, and why. Mainly what the best setup for pursuit on the track would be. Are there track specific pursuit bars I should look into?
Input on these things and anything else related to aerobars / their position and body/torso due to the bars is appreciated. Things including and not limited to...
Extension types and why - ski poles in a Y to roll solders was suggested and current setup.
Fore/aft pad position as well as height.
Curious if the pelvic angle is more acute or open.
I want to know how the aerobar / drop position would be different than on the road, and why. Mainly what the best setup for pursuit on the track would be. Are there track specific pursuit bars I should look into?
Input on these things and anything else related to aerobars / their position and body/torso due to the bars is appreciated. Things including and not limited to...
Extension types and why - ski poles in a Y to roll solders was suggested and current setup.
Fore/aft pad position as well as height.
Curious if the pelvic angle is more acute or open.
I mean, we can postulate and debate the pros and cons of it all. But, there is only so much we can do.
09-15-16, 12:39 PM
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
@carleton The thoughts you put here were interesting: https://www.bikeforums.net/19008260-post2.html That seemed to be around the kilo. The pursuit @ 4K - does that change things? As the distance and time increases I would think the thoughts might change, or the aerobars become more important. Is the flatness / aeroness of the rider the trump card over a slightly better power position? What is interesting to me is that some of the pursuit names are known to the road world. there is a crossover.
So whatever got you to start this thread and your thoughts about bars for the kilo, I'm interested in the same discussion for the 4K distance.
Edit Add:
If I pay a coach there is an expectation that the coach's advice should be taken. On a forum I can get various opinions before getting locked in. Your kilo example is a good case. The choice of bars. I have seen top coaches give different opinions. Some locking a rider into a position, or style, or training method that if they are wrong, really changed things. So the forum is very good for bouncing around ideas.
So whatever got you to start this thread and your thoughts about bars for the kilo, I'm interested in the same discussion for the 4K distance.
Edit Add:
If I pay a coach there is an expectation that the coach's advice should be taken. On a forum I can get various opinions before getting locked in. Your kilo example is a good case. The choice of bars. I have seen top coaches give different opinions. Some locking a rider into a position, or style, or training method that if they are wrong, really changed things. So the forum is very good for bouncing around ideas.
Last edited by Doge; 09-15-16 at 12:52 PM.
09-15-16, 12:58 PM
#48
Elitist
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
Yeah, there are sort of different requirements for a kilo rider vs a 4k rider. The standing start is crucial for most super strong kilo riders. So, they may like deeper drop bars that don't flex. Because the speeds are higher, they may like wider elbow placement for stability at 65kph/40mph.
I'm not a pursuiter, so I don't know things from that side of the house.
Yes, if you pay a coach, I guess you should listen and trust in the person and the program. But, a good coach will also listen to feedback from you and your son and take that into consideration with his/her advice to you.
To be honest, we are now splitting hairs. There are more factors that we aren't talking about that would have a much bigger impact on a kilo or 4k.
You are sorta asking, "Which bars and which position are best for my son?", that we cannot answer. We can, however, offer our own opinions about equipment that we've used and liked or disliked and the reasons why.
I'm not a pursuiter, so I don't know things from that side of the house.
Yes, if you pay a coach, I guess you should listen and trust in the person and the program. But, a good coach will also listen to feedback from you and your son and take that into consideration with his/her advice to you.
To be honest, we are now splitting hairs. There are more factors that we aren't talking about that would have a much bigger impact on a kilo or 4k.
You are sorta asking, "Which bars and which position are best for my son?", that we cannot answer. We can, however, offer our own opinions about equipment that we've used and liked or disliked and the reasons why.
09-15-16, 04:47 PM
#50
Lapped 3x
Testing is where you will find things out at his point.
Basically the position will be similar to how your son would set up for a short time trial. You might get lower/more aggressive with torso angle because comfort isn't as big of a factor. Flatter base bars are good when it comes to tempering the standing start so you don't go out to fast and cook yourself early on (deeper drops allow for more hip extension). Basically you want to slipperiest position that doesn't kill too much power and still gives you the control that you need.
Basically the position will be similar to how your son would set up for a short time trial. You might get lower/more aggressive with torso angle because comfort isn't as big of a factor. Flatter base bars are good when it comes to tempering the standing start so you don't go out to fast and cook yourself early on (deeper drops allow for more hip extension). Basically you want to slipperiest position that doesn't kill too much power and still gives you the control that you need.