jmX

Are we going here again? Who cares if you can "tell the difference". If scientific tests say the difference is there, then it's there. I couldn't tell the difference between 24mph and 25mph just from driving a car around, but at the end of the year I bet I'm $50 richer.

10 things you can't notice can add up to something you can.

If free watts is inapplicable to 99.9% of everybody, then I'm 100% sure that given your standards that you probably have a bike that is "inapplicable" to your skill level as well.

jparillo

Sorry about that forgot to mention I had ordered the Foil 40.

Hiro11

Personally, I wouldn't buy this bike. The seat post clamp on this bike is a bit notorious. It requires a high amount of torque to hold the post without slipping (something like 12NM) and because of the design many people have apparently cracked their frame. Lots of anecdotal stories about this around the web. Lately, all Foil models have been very hard to find and I've heard (fourth hand from people I don't know on the internet) some dealers have said that they're stopping manufacturing on current Foils and redesigning the seat clamp to resolve these issues.

This all could be rank superstition, but I've very doubtful about a carbon frame that requires that much torque to secure the seat. Lots of other choices out there in this price range.

Edit: just noticed other people had posted the same points. Sorry.

ckp71

Beautiful bike. Nice pictures too.

bianchi10

Not my bike, not my pictures. Found them on google

zigmeister

We've been having this same discussion over at WW.

You bring up a bunch of variables, which are consistent variables. Oxymoron? No. You are going to likely wrap your bars the same way with the same handlebars on each bike right? Of course. Certain things are very consistent. Are you going to change to a different brand of pedals because you changed your frame? No. Why would you do that?

The comparison is between the aero frame, and a fat tube, like the regular CDale Supersix. It is proven, the Foil is around 18-20w more aero than the CDale. The Venge/S5 are about 6-7w more aero.

I keep making this point, it is the aerodynamics of a frame that is the factor. Fork/Frame/Seatpost. It is why some testing decided to use no cables/bar tape etc..and some did, plus using a dummy on the bike. Depends on which one you read. Either way, the aero frames had proven savings in drag denoted by weight in grams. Which translated also to savings in wattage.

If aerodynamics were all just a farce, then I suggest all guys using time trial/aero frames for competition just throw them in the bin and just ride whatever, since it makes no difference according to people who don't understand basic physics/drag.

Oh wait, we know it makes you faster. It has been proven time and time again, rider position and bike aerodynamics are the key to reducing drag, making you faster due to less drag in watts.

Trust me, no pro/track riders would be on an aero frame, and millions spent in R&D developing the frames to make them more aero, if there was nothing to it like you state.

The aero road bike trend, with newer carbon technology, is a combination and goal to do a few things very well: 1) give some aero advantage 2) still be able to make a very light frame and 3) a stiff frame (previously, round tubes were the strongest, not anymore). Frames can be made as stiff as people like them, in different shapes which are conducive to aero savings in wattage, and keep it very light at the same time.

LAWMAN

VeloNews just did a comparison of the Foil, the S5, Venge & Litespeed C1. the Cervelo was the most aero, but they picked the Foil as the winner. the aero frames did make a measurable difference over a round-tube frame; on the Cervelo the difference was said to be 82 seconds over 40K. See the VN for 5/2012.

pgjackson

I never said it didn't exist...I said it means nothing to 99.9% of cyclists. To a top pro rider, it might make a difference...to the rest of us, very doubtful. I also questioned the relevance of a wind-tunnel experiment when applied to actual road riding. That 7w aero advantage would probably be negated by thicker tape, or new pedals, or different shoes...or any number of factors that create wind resistance. I just think it's silly for recreational cyclists to concern themselves with such points of trivial minutiae. If that is your reason for buying or not buying a bike then you have seriously fallen for a bunch of marketing hype.

pgjackson

If you can't tell the difference, why spend the money on frame simply because it claims to be more "aero"? What I had for breakfast will have more impact on my ride than how areo my bike is. On this forum, I'd say all of us ride bikes that exceed our actual skill level. It's a hot looking bike. I'd buy it just for that reason.

baiskeli

Nice bike.

I test rode a Scott FOIL Team issue last year and was debating between getting the FOIL 20 or a 2011 Focus Izalco Ultegra last week(I went with the Focus because it was markedly cheaper after discount), but I could have gone either way. I especially like the all black understated styling of the FOIL 20. If I remember correctly, the FOIL has a longer top tube than most (I think 58 for the 58 I was looking at), but it also has a slightly taller head tube. The effect is that it is pretty comfortable out of the box (I took the Team Issue on a 60 mile ride) but you can get lower by removing some of the spacers. I've heard that people consider the frame harsh but I didn't think it was.

If you test ride it, I have a suspicion you might consider purchasing it.

baiskeli

The Scott FOIL 40 with 105 is about $2500
The FOIL 20 (Ultegra) is $3500

The frameset used for the higher end ones (HMX vs HMF) is slightly lighter but even if you got the FOIL 40, you're getting a great bike for $2500 and you can upgrade components to your hearts extent later.

Commodus

You're right, but if you're looking at a half dozen carbon wunderbikes, you might as well get the aero one. They're all going to be virtually identical anyways.

pgjackson

If the "more aero" one is cheaper, I might consider it. I just think it's funny that people get all worked up over silly statistics that make absolutely no practical difference.

Commodus

Everyone has their own threshold of what 'matters'. For example, I think it's funny that people rush out to buy carbon bikes and brifters. But hey, if you like it and you can afford it...

oldroadham

Managed to get a Foil 20 frame and fork from a fellow who parted his out for "new baby money."

I took the time to weigh both the frame and fork on my XL/58cm.

Frame 1100g. Fork 440g, set back seatpost ~ 230g and it is freakin' loooong!

For the frame, this includes the upper headset cup, the bottle cage bolts, derailleur hanger, and the "threader cables", cable segments to use to thread actual cables through the frame.

I test rode a Team Issue bike. Loved it, just couldn't afford it. $1350 for this frame made more sense especially since I have a full Campy Record 10 group to stick on it. A local dealer is getting me a zero offset seatpost (the zero offset only comes on the smaller Foils) and I'm waiting for my BB86 to UltraTorque adapter cups.

I like the headset too. Easy to replace cartridge bearings. The lower bearing mates with the raw frame and fork whereas the upper bearing sits in (but isn't pressed into) a hiddenset type cup.

Other than that, everything from my present bike goes on. I have both Mavic Cosmic Elite and Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels to use.

You know, I can really tell a difference between the Cosmic Elites and the Ksyriums in the wind. Here in Utah, the Cosmics seem more appropriate most days.

Funny I had the Cosmics already and that they come standard on the Foil 20. Great training wheel and I use them in the local crit series sucessfully too!

The ride on the Team issue with the old style Zipp 404 clincher wheels was sweet! Remember, however, I'm getting off of a 2005 Specialized S-Works E5 frameset. (an upgrade of carbon seat stays w/zertz inserts over the standard allez frame)

While there are those who like to say the Scott Foil is too stiff vertically, it isn't for me. It is softer than my Al/C Specialized, that's for sure! Besides, I have a fiz:ik kurve snake saddle and they absorb LOTS of road shock without being overly soft with padding.

What I liked best during the windy test ride was two things: 1) the Foil handled more surely and quickly in high speed turns than my E5 and 2) the stiffness of the drivetrain. I can barely stand to ride my E5 anymore; all I can feel is how much it doesn't go when I crank hard on the pedals!

FWIW.

oldroadham

I live in Utah, Salt Lake Valley. The wind is always blowing hard enough to affect my ride. If I can by a road bike that makes me less miserable in the wind, tell me where to sign up. (I did, btw)

However, here's something else nobody has mentioned. My neighbor has a BH G5 from last year and an old aluminum Fuji Team. On the Fuji, he is easy to draft even though he has a very natural, low, aero position. When he rides the BH I can barely find a draft, even into lots of wind.

He and I both race. Now, you tell me that he doesn't have an advantage over me when racing. He's hard to draft and I'm easy. He can get away with less change of pulling the pack along with him. I'm always dragging someone in my draft.

Let's hope my new Foil mitigates a little of this inequity!