topflightpro

I have a CycleOps Fluid 2 and my wife has the Kurt Kinetic Road Machine. We also have a Performance Travel Trac Elite Fluid Trainer.

Here are my thoughts:

From a quality perspective, both CycleOps and KK are pretty awesome. They are both solid pieces of equipment, and they seem pretty comparable in terms of how loud they are.

Where I think the KK outshines the Cycleops is the engagement systems. CycleOps uses levers to lock in the bike and to lock the resistance unit to the rear wheel. It works fine. KK, however, uses a screwing system. It takes a little longer to set up and is a bit of a PIA by comparison, but I feel like it does a better job of locking the bike in, and it gives you more flexibility in fine tuning the amount of pressure you apply to the rear tire/adjusting the resistance - the fluid system does that but also how much pressure applied to the rear tire affects that as well.

If I had to buy another trainer tomorrow, I'd lean toward the KK, but I'd probably get whichever of the two was cheaper.

As for the Travel Trac, it is crap. Do not buy it. The whole things sucks. I hate it. I bought it for my wife because it was cheap, and I didn't think she'd ride it much. Well, it sucks so much I can't blame her for not wanting to buy it. One of our LBS's had the KK on sale for 50 percent of back in February so I bought it for her even though the Travel Trac was practically new. I debate selling it, but since it is so compact, we tend to bring it with us to races in case there is no place to warm up.

As for the front wheel, we have one CycleOps climbing block and one Travel Trac block. Both work fine. The Travel Track is nice because it is small. The CycleOps is a bit wider and offers different elevations, which I really like (when I'm feeling lazy, I put the bike in the highest setting). The KK one looks good to. I also have used a phone book in the past, which also works fine. Whatever you do, I suggest you put something under the front wheel to keep you from leaning forward the whole time.

canam73

To Campag4life: I have the KK cup but I also have the Nashbar riser block with an extra riser and prefer that. It does a better job of 'self centering' on the wheel and I prefer a little more front lift when riding on the trainer as there is no wind resistance to help hold you up. It feels more natural to me.

hhnngg1

I used to do some group trainer workouts with a coach in a bike shop and when I first got my trainer I used phone books to elevate the front wheel.

After turning 3 of the store's phonebooks into a pulpy, sweaty mess, I bought a plastic riser, to the relief of the bike store owners. My last session was particularly impressive - my wheel actually SANK into the phone book by the end of the workout. Turns out I pour out nearly a cup of sweat from my Cycleops riser (I have the big one with multiple levels) from a 60-90 min workout. Not pretty.

Campag4life

Guys for those interested...on Kurt's site, I found the calibration of the Kinetic Trainer...which closely replicates watt to speed conditions on the road in windless conditions. Beauty of fluid trainers is...resistance can be closely correlated to air drag on the road by adjusting chamber fluid viscosity...air being a fluid and exponential relationship to speed.
PS: I suppose in lieu of remounting my speedo sensor to the rear drop out, I could keep track of what gear I ride and approx. cadence...and approximate road speed and power output...or at least loosely.

https://www.kurtkinetic.com/powercurve.php

hhnngg1

Kinda old news - Trainerroad does this for you automatically, as well as for like 10 other trainers. This 'virtual power' thing has been around for years now.

Still good info to have on hand though.

Campag4life

No doubt old news...but not for the uninitiated...me...and perhaps others coming up to speed.
Keep in mind that knowledge while available becomes known to each of us at different times, if at all.

By 2029, the human brain will be reverse engineered for superior artificial intelligence interfacing with all virtual information available for highest order math modeling which will allow complete DNA mapping and elimination of disease and age reversal, aka immortality...lol.
Hopefully fossil fuel will be eliminated by nano technology and sun synthesis of energy. Genetic engineering will hopefully supplant our current health crisis born out of poor eating interacting with defective genes.
All in the nick of time as health costs are swamping our country...likely 40% self induced due to stupid diet and poor habits.
Biking will be done in a virtual environment and humans will have direct cyber machine linkage.
Racing will be obsoleted...so rest up.

https://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/20...ought-revealed

carpediemracing 

Rollers help pedal stroke but I think there is a myth that racers swear by rollers. Some may use them but many do not.

I should clarify also. By "rocking" I mean standing out of the saddle and rocking the bike, like sprinting to the line or climbing out of the saddle. Proper technique here means pulling up on the bars, wagging the tail of the bike a bit. If you study footage of sprinters and climbers you'll see that their bottom bracket and torso basically travel in a straight line. If you tilt a bike it wants to turn a bit so sprinting or climbing out of the saddle results in a s-curve tire track (as proof just go up a hill behind a group ride after a light rain - you'll see there are no straight lines at all). To maintain "straight line" form the torso needs to be going in a straight line - when your torso starts to veer it's not good.

In order to do this you need to pull up on the bars when the same side pedals are going down, so if the right pedal is going down you need to pull up on the right side bars.

On a normal trainer if you stand you'll instinctively end up doing a backwards motion where you're pushing with your arms (i.e. you push down on the right side on the right side downstroke) when you should be pulling. With a Rock N Roll type trainer the bike moves so you can pull up on the right side when your right pedal is on its downstroke.

Although I rock my shoulders, sometimes on purpose, sometimes not, that's a separate issue. This is more a disintegration of form thing, not a way to propel your bike more efficiently.

Rollers address a different part of form - pedal stroke and, to a certain extent, steering/handling. Rollers don't forgive a lot of roughness, especially if you're trying to average a higher rpm, like 120 rpm. You learn real quick to avoid bottoming out on the pedal stroke, where you inadvertently push down at the bottom of the pedal stroke. You also learn to alternatively use the whole pedal stroke or not, depending on if you're resting or not. This is possible because on normal low resistance rollers the wheels won't slow too much if you coast or ease off on the pedals. Therefore you can learn to do just enough to turn the pedals over versus using the whole revolution. I find I can't get this with any trainer, at least not in any smooth way, except for a mag unit set at a super low resistance setting.

Resistance rollers, for me, combine the worst of both trainers and rollers. I've tried rollers with mag units (i.e. adjustable linear resistance), wind units (Kreitler Headwind as well as Racermate 1 frame-mounted wind unit), small diameter rollers (for significantly increased rolling resistance), and I found that the lack of inertia really affected my pedal stroke in a negative way. It was worse than being on a trainer.

A couple years ago I converted my Kreitlers into a set of motion rollers. Unfortunately it seems that my long reinforced roller instincts don't lend themselves to the new "I can sprint out of the saddle on rollers" paradigm. Although I can stand etc on regular rollers I felt uncomfortable doing anything but regular pedaling on the motion rollers. I appreciate the low resistance, the more forgiving aspect of the motion rollers, but I can't let go of my ingrained habits when I stand on them. I suppose I should set up the rollers between two big couches and just go for it.

Whatever, my resounding lack of success with the motion rollers led me to examine the Rock N Road Roll whatever. A friend of mine welds and such. Last fall he offered to modify a spare trainer stand (CycleOps and KK have the best trainer stands I've used). Ironically I ran into him yesterday for the first time in months and hope to pick it up tonight.

hhnngg1

@ campag - Just surprised you've never seen it before - thought with a post count nearly 2x mine that you would have been sucked into one of those 'how accurate is virtual power' debates that are regularly thrown around here.

hhnngg1

@ Carpe - ok, I see where you're coming from. I'm still pretty surprised at you're pickiness with rollers/trainers, but hey - what works for you is fine.

I can't do all-out sprints standing on rollers, but I do make sure that I can do a pretty hard pace on them without wiping out before I do outdoor rides after a lot of time indoors. I find that it's a really good technique refreshener for straight line riding out of the saddle.

I myself have not noticed anything that feels abnormal on my Cycleops2 trainer or rollers about the pedalstroke. Then again, I prefer to be seated for most of my rides/climbs, so that may have something to do with it. For sure, low-cadence stomp-type mashes don't work as well on the trainer. You can get that wheel going at 35+mph equivalent speed, but you have to still accelerate smoothly to get there with a high cadence. It definitely is different than a final all-out sprint out of the saddle as you described, but I doubt that even a KK rock n roll could equal that.

Campag4life

Yeah...guess I've ducked those. Honestly...I am loathe to the whole trainer scene. Even in the harsh winter...I am south now but soon to return to the tundra...I don't seek indoor riding as I am not much of a fan. No question it makes you a stronger rider. I have simply lived my lapses in the winter and slowly regained form in the spring. I no longer compete other than casually riding with my friends. My one good friend rides in door all winter and I can still drop him in the spring if I want...and I not a very fast guy compared to perhaps yourself and other fast guys here.

hhnngg1

Dude - you HAVE to try trainerroad, then. Seriously. It's the best $10/month you'll ever spend on cycling, bar none.

I've been impressed by everything about it. The workouts are amazing (has both weekly plans and several hundred individual workouts, easily searchable by type), GREAT stat tracking that's unexpectedly fun to use, smooth modern software interface, and surprisingly good 'social' media (I didn't care about it one bit before starting, but I'm finding it's neat to see other users who hammered the same workouts that I thought were tough.)

I've been using trainers for awhile, and thought I got to a place where it was at least useful, albeit not enjoyable. I can say with confidence that in my past 2-3 months with TR, that my workout quality has improved dramatically. My TR workouts are so good that I even question why I ride outdoors on the weekend anymore (sounds insane, but it's true). This however, means, that the amount of suffering on the bike has significantly increased!

I'm suffering more now than ever on the trainer, but it's much easier to suffer when you know that the suffering is completely within your ability (thanks to its virtual power scaling based on your testing.) I used to almost quit when it started feeling very hard, but now after gutting out more than a few of them, I know that the scaling works and I've since just HTFU'd up on all of the workouts. REALLY hard to do that on a trainer without TR.

It ain't easy - anything near threshold pace will have you suffering, wishing for the workout to end (when it invariably doesn't), but with the base plans, you ease into it so that it's not soul-crushing. I'm really looking forward to seeing how strong I get by spring after these sessions.

Parson

I have a Roadmachine and think it's great

Campag4life

Thanks for the advice hhnngg1...appreciate it. Will look into it.

Ultraslide

+1 On my team, only 2 of 20 guys use rollers regularly. I am one of those, mostly because I like the feel of rollers. It feels like riding and when doing winter base miles indoors it's nice to focus on a clean spin and balance. All my strength focused sessions I do on a Road Machine trainer. All my technique focused rides (sprints, cornering) are done on the road.

I've looked at trainer road, and it does look cool, but I am just hoping Training Peaks buys them out and incorporates their features ;-) For now, the numbers on my Garmin and Netflix will have to do.

merlinextraligh

We've also got both, and I also would say go with whichever was cheaper.

Agreed on the engagement mechanism, but I tend to prefer the Cycleops because it is less of a PITA.

The KK has a thoretical advantage on the fluid system not leaking. however, since they improved the seals on the Cycleops a number of years ago it's a non issue.

The Cycleops does give a little bit higher resistance for the same speed (at least comparing our 2 units) This is only an issue for me doing Muscle Tension intervals. ( high torque, low rpm intervals) With the KK, the workload isn't high enough in 53/11 at 55rpm for that interval, where the Cycleops is just enough harder that I can stay at or below 55rpm, and keep the prescribed wattage. However, it's only an issue for this particular drill. At 80 rpm or above, there is alll the resistance anyone could need on either trainer.

So again, pick the one you can get cheaper.

Brian Ratliff

I don't know if it is the best, but the Kinetic Road Machine is pretty good for a trainer. I've had mine for about four years now.

That said, I swear by rollers. I do all my indoor training on rollers these days, including over-speed sprint work. This year, I am riding a track bike and when I sprint, it's a trackie sprint; out of the saddle, but high rpm (over 120rpm) and the bike straight up and down. My threshold power improves when I train on a trainer; my base endurance and fine bike handling (the ability to ride in extremely close quarters and keep my bike on a very tight line in the face of perturbances) improve when I use rollers. If I want to train power, I tend to do this outdoors. The bike just doesn't handle as well on a trainer. You lose all the feel for the bike. You gain power but you lose poise.

Bah Humbug

Let me +1 what he said - I love TR. That plus Netflix lets me ride indoors, painlessly, after sundown. Should have me not getting clobbered on the bike next tri season (hopefully).

waterrockets 

I've been using the same phone book for about a year. I keep a towel handy and wipe my sweat off myself as it beads. I'm running a big fan as well (about 1 foot away from me), so the phone book hasn't lost any pages yet. Not too much sweat makes it to the floor. I love how hot the resistance unit gets with a MAP test

simonaway427

I'll vouch for the kinetic. I personally have the rock n roll. In retrospect, would I have just stuck to Road Machine? Meh....the swaying is a cool feature, and the bushings add a little cusion to the butt during a longer recovery spin.

I use Trainer Road as well - I don't know how I got along without it...its just an awesome tool and its rekindled my enthusiasm for indoor training.

fstshrk

I have had one for nearly 10 years. It is a great trainer. Having said that, I ordered a set of inside ride e-motion rollers and am looking forward to training on them this winter. I feel that the rollers will give me more freedom of motion. Get the KK cup so that your bike is level when you are training.

deepakvrao

I read somewhere that the newer Cycleops trainers have sealed fluid chambers similar to the KKs?

waterrockets 

I don't see that anywhere, but could be possible.

FWIW, Kurt has the magnetic impeller design patented, with some time left on it for further market dominance (2003).

Excelsius

Just the thread I needed. I am also considering getting a trainer. At first I was going for rollers, but after talking to a couple of people and learning about the hassles and the difficulty of doing power training, I decided to get a trainer instead. It seems that everyone agrees that fluid is the way to go. I was set on getting CycleOps JetFluid, until I came across Kinetic in these threads. Is CycleOps mounting system really that inaccurate, as mentioned in that video? That seems to be the only disadvantage, but I'd rather have a quicker adjusting system of JetFluid if the system is only slightly less accurate. Plus it seems that you can get a more consistent pressure(resistance) with JetFluid compared to KK's mounting system.

By the way, what kind of setup do you guys use with the trainer? For example, I have carpet flooring that I like to keep in pristine condition and want to put something under the bike. Those rubber mats cost $60 and I don't think they're worth that much. Did anyone find any alternatives? I also have to buy an adequate fan.

One thing that sucks is that my Cateye speed sensor is on my front wheel. What kind of speed/cadence sensors do you guys use to enable the use of virtual power meters? From what I understand, the sensors must be ANT+ enabled to work, but in that case one must also have a bike computer to get real time speed data on the road and this brings up the price of the whole thing way too much. I'm trying to understand how to do this best.

gregf83 

No help on the carpets but what I use on the trainer is a Garmin GSC10 speed/cadence sensor and an ANT+ stick plugged into a laptop. You can then use something like trainerroad.com or the more recent peripedal to design and record your workouts.

gregf83 

I continue to hear the odd story someone noticing a drip from their cycleops trainer. Their customer service is very good and they get a new one but you might want to keep it in mind and put something underneath just in case.