HarborBandS

I keep looking at the (possibly) Nervex lugs for clues of the frame identity, but apparently these lugs were used on several British frame models.

Nervex Professional lugs

Check out the 1955 Gilott and the 1962 Viking for similar lug details.

Gorgeous build! I love the color.

HarborBandS

It looks like the Nervex angle was well-covered in the other thread. Of course it was!

76SLT 

The problems I've run into trying to ID this frame are probably the same as previous owners ran into. Nervex pro lugs were used on a lot of bikes, but finding another bike with the same fish mouth stays, Stallard rear dropouts, fork crown, which still hasn't been properly identified yet, chrome fork with the lamp mount, chrome lugs, seat and chain stays, and that serial number pattern has been unsuccessful.

madpogue 

Yeah, I think if you stumped Andy, it's about as mysterious as they come.

Dumb question I reckon, but... any reveal(s) on the steerer tube?

HarborBandS

The fork crown looks a lot like the one on this earlier P. T. Stallard fork found on this forum:

1948 P.T. Stallard

76SLT 

The steerer tube is stamped with the serial number and an Accles & Pollock A Made in England stamp.

merziac

Another spitball outta left field here, maybe reach out to Richard Schwinn at Waterford. They used Accles and Pollock early on. And Wastyn who likely worked with it as well, you never know.

63rickert

When you shim the seatpost use a long shim, take it down 7 or 8cm if possible. The longer the shim the less possibility for the post to start rocking. Long shims are more trouble but save trouble in the end. And if you can't get a good solid fit, and get some grease in there, time for musical seatposts until it's right.

The rest of the bike is very right.

hobbs1951

Accles & Pollock - why ? You're assuming this because it has an A & P steerer: this doesn't mean the frameset is A & P, but is does help date the frame. I don't think it is a Gillot, if you look carefully at a Gillot (or many) you should see why I make the comment.

John.

76SLT 

When Andy had it for painting, I asked him to look for any markings on the frame that would identify it. He found nothing anywhere except for the A&P on the steerer tube. I then questioned if that meant it could not be Reynolds since they mark their frames. He said not necessarily. They do mark their tubes usually, but the lack of markings is not a certainty. So we left it as possibly Reynolds 531, possibly A&P frame tubes, definitely A&P fork and steerer. The A&P decals I bought would only go on the fork, unless they state all the tubes. I have to look at them closely again.
I want to make sure I don't mislabel it. Does anyone know if A&P marked all their tubes or not? Did Reynolds not mark some of their tubes back then? How would you decal it?

hobbs1951

Perhaps I should have been clearer, it is not unusual for Reynolds tubed framesets to have A&P steerers (I refer to the column not the fork). I have three A&P tubed framsets: all are Hobbs of Barbican and two have been in my family from new - I've never seen an A&P decal on a fork (reason mentioned above - and never seen A&P marks on anything other than a steerer).

Hobbs of Barbican were users of A&P tubesets and A&P were absorbed into Reynolds in the early post war period.

John
30 yrs a V-CC member.

rhm

To be strictly accurate, the TI group owned Accles & Pollock from 1919 until 1996, and Reynolds since 1928, but A&P was not part of Reynolds.

A&P definitely did stamp their fork blades sometimes. These photos are of the fork of a 1954 Drysdale:





In the absence of stamps, I don't believe there's any way to tell A&P tubing from Reynolds.

76SLT 

I rewrapped the handlebars using cloth wrap. I also tried the string and shellac method on the ends. This looks much better than the thicker wrap. Thanks for the suggestion. I also replaced the NR Rd that just wasn't hitting all the gears, with a Shimano 600 Arabesque. It works great now but I'd still like to get the NR working properly and use that.

merziac

@76SLT

Again, very nice, well done.

I would encourage you to take the stem bolt out and go after it with a brass brush and Turtle wax chrome polish/rust remover, should take that to the next level.

hobbs1951

To be strictly accurate (sic) Tube Investments was registered in the UK in 1919, and A&P and Reynolds were absorbed (you choose a word you prefer to describe this) into TI in 1928 - not in 1919 as your post suggests. A&P throughout the 1930s, 40s and 50s was the preferred bicycle tubeset; it air was hardening and became stronger after brazing - unlike Reynolds tubing.

Whilst A&P survived well into the later twentieth century as a specialist maker of tubes - including Sten gun barrels during WW2 and later nuclear fuel element tubes - it did not pursue the manufacture of bicycle tubesets after the 1950s - my comment about Hobbs of Barbican stands as possibly the most famous user of A&Ps Kromo tubing (Rattrays of Glasgow were another).

76SLT 

I'll give it a try. The camera flash highlights the discoloration. It looks better in person but when I see it now, it does need work.

rhm

Well, what do I know. I wasn't there. I got the 1919 number from Wikipedia, which gives that date on both the A&P page and the TI page.

So as I say, I got these facts from Wikipedia. I could find no information to dispute the 1919 date. What's your source?

And why "sic"? Did I misspell something?

merziac

Sounds good, funny how the camera will show something worse than it is when youed rather it didn't but Lord help ya if you want to really show something subtle or small, then the camera ignores it.

hobbs1951

What do you know ? What you know doesn't bear close scrutiny as it is not from a primary source - Wikipedia is not a primary source. However as you cite Wikpedia you will note upon re-reading the TI page that TI was registered in 1919 as I mentioned, and I quote from that page, Accles & Pollock joined the group in 1928.

I always go to the primary sources, and simply because I have three Accles & Pollock tubed Hobbs of Barbican I know about HoB and A&P - gleaned over many years (before the internet). For those interested here's a little more information on A&P: by the time of it's 50th anniversary in 1949 it had become the largest manufacturer of cold-drawn seamless tubes in the world employing over 4500 people.

Happy New Year.

John.

rhm

What is the primary source that you mention? I do not have access to anything I would call primary. I have to make do with the internet.

Where on that page (what page?) do you find your quote, that "Accles & Pollock joined the group in 1928."? I cannot find it.

According to Black Country History
"In 1919, Tube Investments Limited was formed, embracing Accles & Pollock, Tubes Ltd., Simplex Conduits Co. Ltd. and Credenda Ltd.


The wikipedia information is a little confusing. On the page for Accles & Pollock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accles_%26_Pollock), in the chronology section, it states that "the company was purchased by Tube Investments (TI)" in 1919, whereas the page for TI Group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI_Group) suggests that A&P was one of the founding members of the TI group.

According to the Wikipedia page that I cited (and the following is a direct quote from there),
Tube Investments "was registered as Tube Investments in 1919, combining the seamless steel tube businesses of Tubes Ltd, New Credenda Tube (later known as Creda), Simplex and Accles & Pollock.[1] Reynolds Tube joined the group in 1928.​​​​​​
Note there is a full stop, and a citation, before the name Reynolds. The first sentence deals with events of 1919, the second with those of 1928.

The citation brings us to a somewhat more primary source (https://web.archive.org/web/20070818...uk/history.asp), which again gives the date 1919 for the "Formation of Tube Investments (TI) by Accles & Pollock, Tubes Limited, Simplex and Credenda​​​​​​."

63rickert

To get a lower gear contact forum member Jon Vara (RedClover Components) and get a 37 tooth Stronglight chainring. Chain will hang loose in the small/small combination, which is not a problem. Campy derailleurs will shift the gap without missing a beat. Should the chain hang slack in the two smallest gears that is not a mechanical problem either, though many would see it as an issue. If it bothers you the answer would be a smaller large chainring. 50T, 49T, even 48T. Which would be closer to period correct anyway. A vintage rider would spin faster before thinking to lament lack of a colossal downhill gear.

Beautiful bike, beautiful build.

ascherer 

76SLT 

Do you need to use a longer chain with that?

noglider 

If you find errors in a wikipedia article, please correct them. Anyone can do so.

Wileyone 

Is there any chance the frame might be an Ellis-Briggs? This one has similar features.