CAT7RDR

Reminds me of the time I was on the SGRT MUP circa 2016?
The Tour of California racers were coming down Hwy 39 to loop back to the Mt Baldy Ski Lift finish.
It did not occur to me to jump on the highway and join the Tour of California while the CHP and a few helicopters were overhead.
All I needed was a chance to be a Tour of California Bandit for my seconds of infamy as the CHP handcuffed me.

Darth Lefty 

Why would you bother to ride a bike so hard and so far just to steal a few snacks?

OP's point isn't well made. The snacks were surely bought locally and the food truck didn't drive all the way to your ride from NYC

gpburdell

Pretty clear that you'd be availing yourself of one of the benefits of the ride without paying for that benefit by signing up for the ride.

Freeloader would be the more generic term for such an individual, though bandit is common to riding and running.

The line is intent - Why are you on that portion of the route at that particular day and time?

If it's because there's an organized ride - you're banditing - particularly when that's not a piece of road you'd be riding otherwise.

If you're out for a ride on your own route you regularly ride and it happens to overlap with the organized ride - whether by happenstance or because there's not another option - then you'd be good. There's an annual triathlon based out of a nearby state park every year. For me to do a Saturday ride I literally cannot avoid overlapping part of their road route.

"Tagging along" implies intent to follow along with the other riders.

This is a clear example of you seeking a benefit provided by the race organizers without doing your part of the bargain and registering for the race.

Don't be cheap and selfish - decide whether the experience is worth it to you, and then either register for the race or go ride somewhere else.

Koyote

livedarklions

Hate to break it to you, but so can the absolutist.

CAT7RDR

You're not breaking anything new.
I pre-suppose that there are moral absolutes based on my conscience or if you will natural law.

Both cannot be right as A does not equal non-A.
The pluralists will say they can co-exist.
In our banditry example, that is an intellectual stretch but of course I presuppose there are moral absolutes.

Rolla

Are there only moral absolutes?

livedarklions

The pluralists don't have to kill each other as much as the disagreeing absolutists do.
And you're pre-supposing that the only alternatives are A and non-A. That's begging the question.

CAT7RDR

So in our banditry example, I find it pretty cut and dry. Posters want to add more info or justify a position to make it "no big deal"
for various reasons.

I, on the other hand, stated even when I was invited by other charity riders, I did not partake because I knew it was morally wrong. Even if the event organizers invited me to stop at their rest/hydration station I would still decline because I did not pay for it.

So here is my experience by example. It did not "beg the question." It is based on reality not on exaggeration "kill each other as...".

gpburdell

Oh that could lead us down quite the rabbit hole -- you've definitely outlined one of the pitfalls of relativistic morals... one can't really ever say what someone else chooses to do is inherently wrong, since their choice of morals may be different and nobody can claim either is more valid than the other.

Russ Roth

Having done rides and lived in areas where alternate routes aren't really a good option, if you're riding through at the same time I don't see the issue, their choices shouldn't be your problem on a public road. For example, I lived on the seaway trail for a number of years and ended up riding with groups of riders any number of times, unless you wish to meander all over creation and experience an absurd number of hills, you follow the route and with the riders strung out for miles I'm not waiting for them all to go by. Likewise the Erie Canal, don't care which group or charity it is, if I was out there doing 50 miles I'd be stuck riding with them for 25 miles and organized, paid groups go through all the time.
Doing an MS150 ride we had ride alongs because there wasn't another road that went down that side of Seneca Lake, no big deal. Trying to hop into a race is stupid and a lot of times the course is reserved to their use, so while traffic is around, the race has still reserved the course and you should avoid riding the route during that time.

The one that annoys me is people claiming to have a right to use a facility when they don't. There's a local team that'll show up at the local velodrome and proclaim they've reserved it for their exclusive use but can't produce a permit for the time. Since its a 90 minute round trip for me to go there, if you can't produce a legitimate permit call the police if you like but screw off, I'm riding and I don't care if it bothers you, still public use.

Rolla

So is "not partaking in a charity ride without paying the fee" an example of a universal moral absolute?

CAT7RDR

Why don't you take a position and give some personal experience you have that would enlighten us? It is more authentic.
Examples matter. Socratic dialogue is great if you are a philosophy professor.

Paul Barnard

I have followed this thread and read the responses. I wasn't really sure what I thought about it, so I gave it a while to marinade. I don't have any issues with someone who didn't pay to ride in the event, riding on the route as long as it's public. Why should I care?

Partaking of the food and beverage is theft, unless it is provided with the knowledge that the person didn't pay the entry fee.

Ironfish653

As an Event Organizer, I take this very personally.
I have two events that I and my family play a pretty major role in putting on every year. It is a much bigger effort in time and money than many people realize.
We’re operating on behalf of a nonprofit, so all the leg work required is on top of our “day jobs”
Sure, there are professional organizers, like our timing and scoring guys, but somebody has to pay them. We have to secure sponsors, get vendors lined up, arrange venue and event permits from the city; we have to find and coordinate all the volunteers and whatever supplies they need, it’s typically a handful of very dedicated individuals giving their time and effort to get all the pieces in place.

So, for you to show up and take my start line without signing up is a personal affront to me, and everyone who put in the time and effort to put that event together.

I absolutely would throw you out. Personally.



On a more objective note, it’s also a legal / insurance issue for you to have bandits in your event. The terms and conditions when you sign up usually include some form of “Hold Harmless” waiver , in the case that there is an incident.
You, as the bandit, did not sign on to that agreement, and while it’s debatable as to whether you could win a judgment, that’s time and money that we, the organizers, don’t want / have to spend, so we’d rather have you removed from our course and avoid that possibility altogether.

Rolla

I'm just trying to understand your position on moral absolutes; can you not answer either of the questions I posed?

WhyFi

The roads may be public, but the event is not.

Paul Barnard

I am still not sure why I should care if a bandit bicyclist is riding with me and the other 172 riders.

Ironfish653

True, it wasn’t your ​​​​​​ time and money that put the event on, why should you care?

Course control, rest areas, after-events, rider ‘swag’ I know BF considers that kind of thing gauche, but most people expect that kind of thing, and entry fees help cover those costs.

Nobody’s getting rich putting on local charity rides, but you’ve apparently got the time and money to burn, so, bah, whatever.



See also my above post about liability. You signed the waiver, they didn’t. If there is an incident, it’s a big deal, and it becomes a huge headache for everyone involved, when you have someone who wasn’t supposed to be there. As an organizer, we’d rather head that off early and keep unregistered riders/ runners out of our event

downhillmaster

Yoy say that now, but wait until Larry is drafting you…

tomato coupe

Ride organizers often obtain a permit for a maximum number of participants. If "pirates" show up, and the local constabulary count too many participants, the event organizer may not be able to obtain a permit in the future.

AlgarveCycling

Our events are run on very reasonable budgets. The MTB XC races we have - usually one or two a month - have many local business and council Sponsors who chip in. There is a minimum participation of circa 150 riders but usually they are upwards of 300 - last race was over 600. The race fee is 10 euros, typically, and covers your number, a t-shirt, a water bottle, Marshalls at every major turn, Police support including closed roads and all the pageantry that goes with a race and of course, the podium trophies for all the categories. Last Sunday's race had free cakes before too! Oh, and free photographer; she gets paid by the organisers.

The MTB races aren't on closed circuits but on public tracks, trails, farms and towns.

The road cycling Gran Fondos are more expensive, circa 20-30 euros but that gets police ******* added in too.

Compared to race entry costs I've seen elsewhere, it is a bargain and very well done.

livedarklions

Just because I recognize that no moral code is " natural " and that morality is a complex interaction between individual and social beliefs does not mean I wouldn't consider banditry wrong. Of course it's wrong, and it's too trivial a question to merit much in the way of debate. I'm objecting to your blanket condemnation of moral relativism and pluralism.

By the way, libertarianism is an absolute individualist philosophy which really screws up your whole classification of moralists. I'm pretty sure they could justify banditry or the use of force to prevent it.

livedarklions

Look, you pointlessly introduced the philosophical labels into this thread. Don't get hostile when you get caught out on a limb you put yourself on.

This probably comes under the heading of petty technical theft which pretty much every person does some of. Are you completely scrupulous about not sharing your streaming passwords with your adult children, for example?

livedarklions

You're probably free riding on whatever insurance they had to pay in order to clear (permit) the route and gather the group. That's theft.