Digikid

Good idea. Thanks!

So I take it that you also have a Veloteq?

Kevin the Giant

I own a Challenger here in Toronto. I bought it from Segway of Ontario, the Veloteq dealer. It was one of their summer rentals, so I bought this used bike cheap. So far, it has given great value! Before the storm I was biking every day to wherever I had to go.

I'll probably be out again tomorrow, since the government should have the roads ploughed. It is my intention to ebike all winter wherever I have to go. Unless there is really bad weather like today, when I'll take the TTC instead.

Kevin

cleanrider

Ya, put the pedals back on or you will be paying a fine. I mentioned the problems with the 'scooter/ebike' but overall it is a pretty good machine. It is good for short trips and just getting out for a ride.

Digikid

Heh. I took mine for a ride one day and ended up in Durham. From Markdale to Durham and back on a Ebike. Quite a lot of fun except for the morons honking their horns at me. Surprisingly it did NOT drain the battery!!!

Abneycat

Well, its good to hear that the Veloteq scooters might be a bit better than some of the other ones i've seen. This guy brought one into Power in Motion when I was in one time, and his bottom bracket had broken free within his frame. I don't even know *how* you can do that, but thats not good.

Curious though, about how much do each of your bikes weigh, are they comfortable to pedal, and how well do they handle under human power?

I took my girlfriend to the store on the back of my 'Xtra the other day, first time we've done it. Definetly an interesting riding experience, as she had no idea how to properly balance on the bike!

Digikid

Actually I NEVER pedal my Veloteq Cavalier. To wide to peddle. I only use the Electric Power.

stokell

That makes it an electric scooter then, not a bicycle since the primary power on an e-bike must be provided by muscular power. That's the way it is in Ontario and I am happy with that definition and the special treatment I receive under the law because I pedal.

I think that adequately powered electric scooters have their place on the roads of our province, but they shouldn't pretend to be bicycles.

Digikid

No. It is an E-BIKE...not an electric SCOOTER.

It is just a matter of option. You can peddle it or use just the electric part. Please look again at the defination of an E-Bike.

stokell

Please read these FAQ's about ebikes in Ontario and then read the minister's letter stating that ebikes must be primarily muscle powered.

What is the problem? To me the legislation is clear. E scooter owners should be lobbying to get more powerful motors so you can keep up with traffic, not hassling ebike owners. We are not the problem. We like you. Really:>

Digikid

LOL!!!! Well to me it will always be an E-Bike.....but I value your opinion as well. Thank you.

cerewa

Keep in mind that the law in ontario is not the law worldwide. Many places outside ontario do not define an "e-bike" in terms of what the "primary power" source is. Even if they do, people in will continue to ride without getting exercise, on e-bikes that work when you pedal without actually contributing any power, or work without any pedaling at all. I don't think that the exercise aspect has much to do with the reasons behind vehicle laws-- much more relevant is a vehicle's ability to do damage to people other than the owner (which is what liability insurance is all about) and that is a factor of speed and weight.

Abneycat

I care little for whether someone pedals or not. While someone is not cycling or using their "e-bike" as a bike, it matters little aside from befitting someone's nitpicking. However, if it is to be known as an e-bike, it must be useful as a bicycle. Adequately capable of traversing a typical urban environment on human power alone, in other words.

However, on cerewa's mention of impact and weight, its worth noting that many of these scooter bikes pack 100+lbs more potential than a typical "true" bicycle e-bike does. Thats a whole lot more potential for carnage.

Golectric

Hi, I just signed up for the forum. I have been riding a Veloteq bike since last December, it was actually one of the first 3 bikes in Ontario last year. I would just like to reply to some of the comments made so far regarding scooter style e-bikes. In Ontario the MTO pilot program use's the Federal definition to define e-bike. I attached the definition.

Some people veiw the scooter style as a threat to the traditional image of a bike, do some searches and you find some pretty interesting bike designs. The key to the definition is limited power, limited Speed, not what it looks like. Weight has been sited as a safty factor. Do the calculations. A 170 lbs rider pedaling a 30lbs non assist bike at 40km or a 165lbs, soft panaled scooter with a 170 lbs rider traveling at 32km. I suspect that the kinetic energy created at the high velocity of the lighter bike will be very close if not higher then the heavier soft paneled scooter.

If you look at the bigger picture, this is not about just traditionl style bikes. The market acceptance and need for the scooter style ebike is huge. The Bike lanes and paths that are being developed with tax payers money need to be used and have a right to be used by all taxpayers, not just traditional looking bikes. This will allow better development of bike lanes and benifit everyone.

On quality

There are quite a few choices of scooter style bikes available in Ontario and yes there are some very cheap models. Shop around, test ride the bikes, visit the dealers service area. If they don't have one find out about your options. I have seen 1st year bikes with over 2000KM in almost showroom condition. I have also seen bikes with under 200km look like there 3 years old and have been stored outside for 3 years. If you ride a scooter style bike like a pedal powered Mn't bike it won't hold up very well. Treat it well and do some bascic maintenace and you should have very few problems.


Pete

Abneycat

Hi Golectric. You have to take the same speeds into consideration if you're going to be performing kinetic potential comparisons. Another thing to note, is that when looking at the mainstream population, their maintained speeds are actually 20-25kph, considerably *lower* than that which a scooter bike would produce on average. 40kph is an example of an athletic road biker, a "non common" example that can *easily* be counterbalanced with examples of e-bikers overvolting their systems.

If you're going to be doing calculations, it has to be without a spin. On average, I think you'll find the moving speed of a bicycle to be lower than that of an assisted variant, making your comparison highly skewed.

Thus, when you're looking at things from an even perspective, without spin, thats an entirely false notion.

The issue really, is that there *arent* any "bikes" out there that come anywhere near 170lbs. The average "bicycle" e-bike measures between 45-70lbs. My system can actually probably be considered one of the heavier ones out there (a steel MTB, Crystalyte, and Xtracycle), and together they all come in at 54lbs pre-battery. I've not got a battery at the moment, but even if I decided to go for the absolute heaviest commercial product out there, the bike would come in at 80lbs.

The only way that I could get this system *anywhere* near the comparative weight of a scooter bike would be by packing things into the Xtracycle. In this case, I could easily push vehicle weight to 250lbs, but that would be a skewed comparison, as a 170lb scooter bike carrying the same gear would push 340. At that point in time, the handling on my X' would be close to that of a vespa style scooter, and the scooter bike would be moving like it was a motorcycle.

There isn't any sort of threat between the two, as the design of the former is built around offering people a scooter style riding position and a more "vehicular" aesthetic.

On the subject of bike paths, I honestly must disagree with you. Safety has precedence over a notion to take e-bikes of any sort onto a bike path which is often occupied with children, joggers, and recreational cyclists. The odds of a 170lb bicycle moving considerably faster than the local traffic, and being safe, are exceptionally slim. Its not a question of aesthetics, its a question of turning yourself into a fast moving brick in a crowd of comparatively slow, unwary targets.

stokell

This is an electric scooter:


December 21, 2007

NYPD Going Green on Electric Scooters
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 2:40 p.m. ET

NEW YORK (AP) -- Police working to keep the city safer will be trying to keep it greener too -- by testing an electric, ultra-quiet scooter.

Four plug-in Vectrix scooters will be road tested starting early next month as the New York Police Department tries to become more environmentally friendly and reduce gasoline use in its massive motor fleet.

The nation's largest police department already uses a handful of hybrid cars and so-called flex-fuel vehicles, which can run on both gasoline and ethanol.

''Police effectiveness comes first, but where we can combine environmentally friendly vehicles without compromising the mission, we do,'' Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said.

The sleek, two-wheel Vectrix scooters are the first all-electric vehicles to be government-certified to travel on any highway, street or road, said Andrew MacGowen, president of the Rhode Island-based company.

The NYPD says officers use the current fleet of regular-fuel scooters to patrol city parks, police street demonstrations or direct traffic.

The Vectrix has a top speed of more than 60 mph and is recharged by plugging it in a standard outlet for two hours. Its higher purchase price compared to other scooters would be quickly offset by the fuel savings, the department said.

Detective Derek Siconolfi, who will train riders, suggested the quiet engines also offer a side benefit: the element of surprise.

''You could easily sneak up on somebody if they don't expect it,'' he said.

------

Golectric

A spin is certainly not what I am trying to do with my calculations. I have seen first hand what petal bikes can do around pedestrians. Your attempt to play the safety card is based on speculation not fact. It is actually much safer to share the path with speed limited scooters then a bunch of riders flying down the path on their petal powered open frame bikes, they will not slow down when they pass because it takes to much energy to get back up to speed. The full lighting and signal system's on the closed frame scooters make for a very visible rider. It really comes down to the individual rider, scooter style or open frame, if you ride like an idiot, someone will get hurt. I have rode both styles. I enjoy my open frame ebikes but when I need some extra storage and comfort for my ride I hop on my Scooter style E-bike.

Pete

Digikid

Well said and 100% agree with you. Also your name sounds familier.....do you have a website for Ebikes? Golectric.com????

Abneycat

If a spin is not what you're trying to do, then don't make an uneven comparison.

There is certainly *no* speculation behind the weight of a scooter bike. I do not take them to the moon to weigh them either. They weigh considerably more than any other common human powered vehicle I can think of. At a comparative speed, this means that the human body needs to exert more energy to retain the same control and performance, that the handling characteristics require more energy to both slow and start. There is no speculation behind this science.

Your statement that "It is actually much safer to share the path with speed limited scooters then a bunch of riders flying down the path on their petal powered open frame bikes, they will not slow down when they pass because it takes to much energy to get back up to speed"

Could easily be taken as a speculative statement as well, as it relies upon a biased opinion around the behaviour of a rider, not the relative capability of their vehicle. Now i'm sorry, but *thats* speculative, I personally consider it utter bull excrement.

As you've said, if you ride like an idiot, someone will get hurt. On the subject of bike paths, here in Canada they have speed limits. As mentioned before, both a roadie and an e-bike modder have the ability to far exceed typical speeds, but in comparison to the average cyclist, an e-bike moves considerably faster.

But that does not change the fact that in a situation where there are other users about on human powered vehicles of similar capacity, bringing in a bike with 140+lbs of additional weight and often a poor Q rated, insufficient pedal system means that this vehicle is essentially a fish out of water in the particular situation. While the pedal situation might vary from model to model, the weight is not speculative or in question.

These vehicles might be acceptable in a utilitary street side bike lane, but on a recreational path where you are faced with close, dual direction traffic with different types of bicycles and pedestrians, they simply don't belong.

Golectric

Digi Kid, Yep thats me

Abneycat, Whatever
Is it OK to ride an open frame e-bike on bike paths or do you think all electric bikes should be banned from bike paths?

geebee

I no longer ride bike paths with my pedal bikes at all due to the speed differential and idiot factor on bike paths.
I do actually ride the e-scoot on then occationally (maybe 10% of the time) as it is easier to just motor along at the average speed of the other users and you are not hyped up about how fast you can pedal/endorphins/adrenaline.
My 40 kg scoot can do 30~35 kph flat out my velomobile can sit on 45 Kph cruising without great effort and will sprint a hell of a lot faster.
My road bike was a bit slower but not alot and the brakes suck on most road bikes.
Which do you think is safer on a bike path? I have ridden both and made an educated decision.

Ultimately if an idiot is riding the bike they are all dangerous to others, and there appears to be a higher idiot quotient on bike paths.

Abneycat

Well, trying to call someone on "speculative" reasoning, being faced with a retort, then returning with "whatever" isn't terribly constructive towards a good discussion.

However, on the subject of bike paths, I personally think anyone endangering others is being nothing but a selfish/ignorant "individual". This includes dumb roadies with their iPods on, barreling through kids on trikes at 40kph just as it does people performing the same act with 170lb scooters at 32kph. So far as open frame e-bikes is concerned, at that same speed they likely promise a similar danger, with a moderately reduced kinetic potential, although one can't generalize about stopping power/maneuverability between models, there could be cases where a scooter bike may stop better than a particular e-bike, and it could be reversed just as easily.

I don't think that people should be riding motorized vehicles down recreational bike paths/MUP's in general. Vehicular bike lanes, go for it. People ride their SUV's down those lanes anyways, it seems, but thats a different gripe.

As i've said, aside from these guys screaming along on their CF bikes, which seems to be the topic of contrast, most people on recreational paths are moving at a much lower speed, often with kids/dogs, joggers and so on.

There's no law to keep you off these paths. But if you think you're being safe, people have been killed by being slammed into by morons on 15lb paperweight bikes before. I'm waiting to see the mess one of these things makes to someone.

geebee

Just another thought exercise, if those killed by bikes hitting them are killed by the impact of the bike and not the resultant fall being thrown, a scooter with its wider, softer, smoother fairings may well limited the damage and even the distance a person is thrown will greatly reduce as if you look under the front fairings on most e-scooters the supports are light and easily deformed ie. crumple zones.
That had not occurred to me previously but it lessens the likley hood of major saftey issues on bike paths, still the main problem is the person riding not the bike.
On the flip side the way the brakes were setup on my e-scoot when recieved was appalling, they would barely stop it but with a bit of tuning etc. they are quite powerful now. A new user may not realise the problems or solutions until to late.
A good reason to buy from a reputable dealer unless you are good with bikes.

Abneycat

Yeah, unfortunately a lot of bikes and products come really poorly setup. I've found there are people who ride one of my bikes and are actually surprised that the drivetrain is *quiet* and everything works.

I suppose that comes down to a question which could really be only answered on a per-case basis by professional analysts and physicists (fairings vs. weight during impact). You may be partially right in some cases, if someone is for instance hit in the face with someone's bullhorn on the handlebar as opposed to a plastic fairing.

I'm not opposed to the idea of scooter bikes, so much as the iterations *of* scooters bikes i've seen. I think they should be operable as a bicycle, and built with a better level of quality control. Some of these 170lb systems with poor Q rates and drivetrain designs are simply not acceptable as bicycles.

No, I don't think they should be on bike paths, but neither should anyone riding over a speed in which you can no longer safely interact with the *whole* speed range, and movement patterns of every rider involved. That counts for iPod idiots, speedsters, e-bikers in general, name it.

On the other hand, some of these products that people say are pretty good, hey, if thats what they want, go for it.

Golectric

OK, Sorry for the Whatever but my time was limited to post

Scooter Ebikes can safley mingle with pedestrians and other bikes it just depends on the rider. I love to set my cruise control between 15 and 20km somtimes and just enjoy the ride. Ipod earphones should not be worn by riders or runners or anyone that should be aware of the suroundings, people have bit hit by trains while wearing them.

Digikid

I quite agree. They should be illegal on any bike...electric or not IMHO.