KonAaron Snake 

Any major dude will tell you.

Road Fan

Mondonico knew all those guys, so we only need to list Mondonico.

montagna_lunga

OK, well, I guess that is what happens when a newbie resurrects a worn out old thread....

my personal list just recounted what I grew up hearing were "the five masters."
45 years later, I'd like to think I am fortunate to have something of a collection,
which includes examples of each...
even though the Masis were made by someone other than Faliero (Pela, oh and MC in Verona)
and no one knows who made the playing card Colnago or the little 71 super, or the 72 "pantografata" super, or the too small 74 super on the peg
it is debate-able who made the early Model B Cinelli,
the early Pog pista "may" have been made by Sante, the '68? he was probably too busy (5 years later) ,
my first DeRosa has cast lugs and is a quantity-emphasis build despite what everyone says about Ugo...so I got a 73 elaborata in original paint KAS livery
I have no opinion as to what or why they might have been referred to as "masters" and today (clearly)
for every hushed statement of regard or reverie the response by braying cynics is...I hope anyways,
more 21st century youthful than curmudgeonly (a nice term for those who wanna be pr*cks)
Besides, my girlfriends, ALL of them, were and are hotter than yours

satbuilder 

Pics of bikes and girlfriends, please.

robertorolfo

So I see that everyone is diving back into the past a little bit here, and having seen this thread for the first time, it certainly made for interesting reading.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to have a worthwhile opinion on the matter, but there was a lot of general talk about craftsmanship and business (models, philosophies...) that I also found interesting, and that I have some experience with.

Let's start with this:
First off, the words "artisan" and "artisanal" are some of the most heavily abused in modern business and wider culture in general. If you live near any city with a sizable enough hipster population, or are just paying attention to marketing trends, you have no doubt witnessed the incredible number of shysters applying this term to every product imaginable.

Of course, most of what is currently labeled "artisanal" is anything but, as are most people branding (in both senses) themselves with the "artisan" moniker. And problems start to arise when, for every legit artisan you have five pretenders, and for every pretend artisan you have tens or hundreds of hoodwinked customers that are either blissfully unaware of having been hustled, or too embarrassed to admit they spent way too much money on a product.

So, getting back to Bandera's comment, I'm not entirely sure he really knows who/what an artisan is. "Made in Italy" is a label that still generates an enormous amount of discussion and controversy in Italy today. Of course it still rightfully carries considerable cachet, but it is also widely abused, much to the dismay of those that have spent, and are spending, considerable time, energy and money to maintain certain standards. Yes, there are sweatshops within the confines of Italy, abusing cheap immigrant labor, because even an Italian sweatshop can fly the "Made in Italy" flag.

As this thread has show us, the cast of characters in the Italian bike building game is large and varied. There can be little doubt that a few of them inevitably sought to cash in on the bike boom (that they may or may not have laid the groundwork for in the first place), but I think the overriding message from everyone in here is that we are talking about the exception much more than the rule.

abellanti

This is my take. There were many good italian builders during the 50s,60s,70s and many hired experienced help in frame production to keep up with the bike boom. I would classify the "greats" as those who were innovation pioneers in geometry, materials and parts development. For instance, Masi helped develop cast lugs, modern geometry and worked with campagnolo for improved product development. The same could be said for many builders during that period. Just look at what bikes the pros were riding. (Not always the company name, but the builder)

jamesdak 

Yep, I'm going to name Billato again.

Here's some info from them on their past:

"I can't really go into who we build for a great deal as we have to
respect client confidentiality, but over the years Billato has built a
great number of frames for a whole host of well known names. You mentioned
Lemond, when he won the 1989 Tour, his time trial bike was built by
Billato, so that should lead to another brand! The guy who won the year
before, rode a Billato-built frame, as did the guy the year before. In
1990, Lemond won again, riding steel frames built from Excell tubes that
Billato helped develop. Some of these were TIG-welded, which hadn't been
seen on a road frame before. Others took the credit for introducing this a
year later.

There was the big Dutch team in the 80's, they rode Billato built frames.
More recently, in 1999, five of the teams riding the Tour rode
Billato-built frames. Last year 'only' three. Perhaps the best one — for
me anyway, is that shortly after Silvio Billato started the company, he
was supplying great rivals Coppi AND Bartali - at the same time!
Some of the early US Masi's were Billato. Also Cinelli Super Corsa.
They're no longer built so it's OK for the public domain as it were!

BTW, I spotted a Vicini on Classic Rendezvous a couple of weeks back. That
one too "

All 4 bikes I have made by them are exceptional. Two of them are only Cromor tubed, one is Columbus TSX and one is Excell Podium. There's just something special about them when I ride them. Like they are sprinkled with Italian pixie dust or something. They just move out, fast!

Bandera

That's more than a bit smug.
Apparently you missed the Quote that I was responding to in my Post #135, here it is again:

The "artisinal" terminology in this thread is not mine (see quote) and smacking of the fawning faux-reverent is used in my post as a pejorative for the often slipshod Italian framesets of the boom era we dealt with in my shop.

For my recommendation of a truly fine Italian marque see Post #25 in this thread.

Agree.

-Bandera

Wildwood 

Someone mentioned Zullo is still producing frames, so i visited the website.

Telai per bici da corsa - Zullo Bike

I have supported USA builders with new (this century) purchases, but a new Zullo would be special, for me. No prices were listed - anyone know what an InQubo or Vintage frameset sells for???

Never owned a frame w/ Dedaccai tubing - EOM 16.5 has been used a lot by Dario Pegoretti, if memory serves.

Did I miss the page with pricing?
TIA

eja_ bottecchia

Colnago
Bianchi
Bottecchia

robertorolfo

I was trying to be nice, but perhaps I should have known better. I know your type. I've spoken to plenty of guys like you before.

You clearly have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to anything Italian. You can't see it, and/or don't get it, so you think any positive connotations that come along with the country of origin are nonsense, while you are all too happy to perpetuate the negative stereotypes.

The way that you used "artisanal" very much gave off the impression that you didn't understand the true meaning of the word.

Regarding that last statement. Perhaps you should find the same humility and admit you aren't knowledgeable enough either?

Bandera

Nice? You come off as both smug and insulting.

My "type"? That would be guys like me that respond to the smug and uninformed with the push-back they deserve.

Chip?
The slipshod Italian frames I had hands on experience building for customers "back when" had a wide variety of flaws in alignment, un-finished milling/facing, lack of metal prep, bad paint, peeling transfers and on and on.
This did not endear me to Italian frames in general.
That being said we also had some very fine Italian framesets come through the shop (see Post #25).
The mfgs realized that American dealers would not put up with inconsistent product and excessive labor costs anymore in the mid '70's.
(See Trek, Mercian, Vitus, Raleigh SBDU, 3Rensho, Miyta and the host of excellent American builders like RRB for where our $ went instead).
Forced to clean up their act product became in general better from Italy, and about time.
Anti-Italian? No, anti-overpriced over-hyped poorly made product from anywhere.

My use of the word "artisanal", once again, was as a pejorative.
Your impression lacks comprehension, and leans right into smugness.

Knowledgeable?
I have my direct experiences to draw upon of what was/was-not going through my shop back when.
If someone was not taking frames from the shipping carton, aligning, prepping, assembling to spec and delivering to the customer a lack of direct experience of various products back when makes any comparison of relative quality a fanciful guess at best. If based on the myth of nation, likely wrong.
No airy conjecture, National pride to defend or rose tinted specs to look back through here or wishing the past was other than what it was.
What was: Was, and I call it like I saw it.

-Bandera

jamesdak 

I gotta say that I read your previous comments to mean pretty much what you are explaining here. Not sure why the controversy by the other poster. To me putting it in quotes like you did clearly showed that you were making a "play" on the word itself.

IVARR

you guys are way too uptight.

ride a bike ...

KonAaron Snake 

If that's your version of nice, you won't last long here. Bandera is good people, and very knowledgeable...it doesn't mean you'll agree on everything.

El Chaba

..an Italian one......

KonAaron Snake 

But what color?

IVARR

green white and red

KonAaron Snake 

I can do red and white, and I can do green and white. I can't do red, green and white. Maybe it's an excuse for new bar tape.

repechage

Any Southern California Junior racer in the 70's could tell you that having a full Campagnolo bike made you faster, without question.
A top of the line Italian bike? Clement seta tires on your race wheels? You were Serious.
Many argued, but all one had to do was look at the equipment the vast majority of the guys on the podium used. Campagnolo, save for Ron Skarin who rode a mostly Dura-Ace Teledyne Titan... with Campagnolo hubs often to victory. The Cult.

Road Fan

Sounds like a plan!

Road Fan

Regarding the controversy, I think on this list we need to err on the side of sharing and receiving knowledge, learning, experience, and opinion. Opinions should be supported by statements of the giver's basis, and we should try to recognize that all of our experiences can differ and still be honest.

Didn't we learn this in school?

Good spelling can also help with the subjective quality of presentation.

montagna_lunga

the five masters:
Pogliaghi
Masi
Colnago
Cinelli
Derosa

robertorolfo

The "type" of person you are was made clear in your initial posts, and not simply in response to my comments. As I said, I've seen many times before and in many different venues.

The fact that you admit you attempted to use "artisinal as a pejorative" is as laughable as it is misguided. That you can't see the error of your own ways, is, well...

Also, I love the implication that the opinion of some nobodies in a Texas (or insert local town here) bike shop was the catalyst that, "generally improved" the product out of Italy. Again, you don't understand how things work.

At this point, if you really do wish to continue making the claims you are making, I would say that you have to start naming names. Surely some accusations of poor quality some 30 plus years ago will not ruffle any feathers in Il Bel Paese, no? So tell us... tells us who, specifically, was sending over this crappy product you speak of?

We are now up to 8 pages of people essentially concluding that there were too many great builders to narrow them down to a short list, with you being the lone standout, shouting from a corner that, actually, it was all crap. You are going to need to substantiate your claims. Till then, you are just one of those guys with a personal ax to grind.

Wileyone 

Fixed it for you.
Galmozzi
Cinelli
Derosa
Pogliaghi
Masi