himespau 

Bummer your ride got shot down.

az_cyclist

I heard yesterday that NPS rangers will be watching the Death Valley DC riders very closely this year, and that riders are being requested to obey all traffic laws and to ride in single file.... the implication being that the NPS is looking for reasons not to allow the ride in the park. This sounds similar to what you are saying biker395

Biker395 

I'll second that. I'm personal friends with a couple of FS employees or ex-employees. Have you ever read "Nature Noir"? It dispels the myth of what it is like to be a forest ranger. Basically, they have the job of not only conservation and care of the landscape, but policing it too ... and some of the people they have to deal with are criminals in every respect. IMHO, those guys are underpaid for what they do.

That's part of what makes this whole thing so bizarre. With all the crap they have to deal with, they'd rather pick a fight with the people who support them and are just riding through? I mean seriously now ... we're all wearing spandex and riding bicycles ... what he hell are they afraid of? I honestly think this is some mid-level bureaucrat, not someone actually working in the field.

OK ... confession time. I actually AM an attorney, and I deal with federal administrative law on a daily basis. Different stuff, though. But that's how I knew enough to review the public comments to the relevant code of federal regulations.

Yea, I could file a lawsuit, but I'm more apt to tell the FS to pound sand, and leave the suit-filing up to them. Then they can explain to an Article III judge how their law applies to roads that they are on record as saying otherwise. As y'all have astutely pointed out, we were out-bluffed. I'd call them on it.

The reason I asked the question here was the thought that perhaps they were relying on another law for the authority to demand a permit. I rather doubt it, but you never know, and I thought someone else might have had experience in that respect. I know enough never to underestimate an adversary.

I'll contact our Senators and local representatives, though. And I think it makes sense for the cycling community to make some noise about it too. 300 voices are a lot louder than 1, even if the law appears to be on our side.

Believe it or not, they didn't ask. Probably because someone asked decades ago and was told they didn't need a permit. The FS got wind of it from somewhere else ... the Internet, perhaps?

DnvrFox

50+ years ago, I was a USFS fire fighter, a USFS fire guard (as was my dad), and a USFS fire lookout. This doesn't sound like the USFS I knew. But, I don't think I have much pull there as everyone I knew is long gone (literally)!

In regards to organization, there are several major agencies in the US of A (as has been pointed out by others to some degree):

1. USFS, under Department of Agriculture, manages national forests and grasslands and the like. This is also the largest fire fighting agency in the world, as I understand it.

2. National Parks and Monuments under Department of Interior, Bureau of Land Management under Dept of Interior (huge holdings)

3. Many states have state foresters and state forests

4. Many states have state parks/reserves, sometimes under the same agency as 3 above, sometimes not

5. Some states have state wildland fire fighting agencies - most notable being CalFire, with over 4,000 employees.

6. And then there are county fire and open space and park agencies - extremely common here in CO, and even city Open Space and parks agencies.

And I have probably left out a bunch.

Biker395 

Hey ... they want our feedback!

https://www.vcstar.com/news/2013/oct/...er=yahoo_feeds

Maybe we should reschedule the ride for a day they're out there asking for input.

One thing I'd tell them ... if they really want accurate data indicating how the public uses the National Forest, it's a little disingenuous to kick it off with a policy that excludes a whole class of those users.

rydabent

Biker395 +1

Especially a class of users that are as benign as cyclist.

zonatandem

Public roads/highways are for all the public.
Private roads are not.

crazyb

Maybe I read it wrong, but it doesn't sound like they won't let you ride, but that the ride organizer needs to be in contact with the concerned agencies and coordinate with them what is required. I organize a road race, that goes thru two counties, three communities, with 4 different law enforcement agencies involved. I have a long list of officials to coordinate with every year. Permits are required and paid for with entry fees. Maybe lack of communication is the issue.

prathmann

I'm suprised to hear that the Forest Service is giving these events such a hard time. I know the federal parks have had policies that restric bicycle events, but the Forest Service used to be much more open to various uses of their land and roads. Our club has had a regular ride from the East Bay to Yosemite Valley and ran into problems years ago when Rangers seeing us in matching jerseys thought we were part of a commercial tour group which they prohibit. Took lots of explaining to convince them that a bike club is basically like a group of friends getting together on a ride and that no one was making any money from our rides.

big john

As was said, the ride has been held since 1984, always with the USFS fully aware. The lunch stop has always been at a USFS station. The first rest is adjacent to another USFS facility. I think someone, for some reason unknown to me, decided to be a jerk the day before the event.

Biker395 

See what Big John said above. The ride organizers had done that. The FS had never claimed a special use permit was needed before, but did so a short time before the ride was to take place. They were blindsided.

crazyb

Ok thats quite a bit different story. We had that happen with one county individual in one of our road race start towns. She actually called the cops on us for blocking the street alongside the county courthouse. Solution? Switched start towns.

Doug64

The Forest Service does not set bag limits or set hunting rules on National Forest Lands. If you are dissatisfied, you might talk to the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, the folks that do.

CB HI

And let the businesses at the original start point know who the county individual was that cost them money.

crazyb

They knew, and she didn't get voted back in.

Biker395 

david58

Well, how's that now for government agency cooperation. ODFW folk blame the FS! Guess it's nobody's fault.......

But as organizing a ride goes, if the roads are county or state the FS has no say in their use.

My favorite climbing ride so far is the Mount Hood Challenge, about 8500' in just shy of 80 miles. A majority of the miles are on FS roads in the Mt Hood National Forest. I hope the guys out here didn't get the memo and let us continue to do the ride (and there is a road race associated with it, too).

Biker395 

Around here, they had a way of ambushing people and bluffing their way into the organizers canceling the ride.

In any case, if it happens, be armed with the following information:

1. The comments and final rulemaking for the special use permits under 251.50: https://www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/doc...1_50_final.pdf

2. Note that on page 41950, a response to a comment indicates that the special use permit applies to National Forest Service Roads, and is not required for roads under the jx of the state, county, or local public road authority.

3. Note also that on page 41953, it was asked how one is supposed to know the difference. The answer was that an atlas showing which are which is required to be published.

4. I think the atlas for the Los Padres National Forest is here: https://www.fs.usda.gov/.../FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5291371.pdf

But you should be able to find the atlas for your National Forest. Stay off the National Forest Service roads, and you should not need a permit.

YMMY.

Ali_Pine

Bureaucrats' - If one rulebook says you can another says you can't. And another that overrides both rules.

Monoborracho

You may find that even though they are public roads, they roads are built on specific-use easements from the Feds, as government ownership predates the public use in California for most land. So, yeah, they probably can make some rules.

Biker395 

Citation please?

Even if the Feds own the land and the roads and they are built on specific-use easements, the question is whether they have statutory authority for demanding a special use permit. The final rule comments to Section 251.50 indicates that they do not.

pdlamb

I'd be tempted to kick it up a notch. Write a letter to the local chambers of commerce congratulating them, along with their congresscritters, for diversifying their economic base to the point that they don't need the business tourists bring into town. Specific example, the riders who won't be coming through, and won't be bringing their families back to see the spectacular scenery (at kilobucks per week). Add in that the loss of their tourism was caused by NFS employee John Doe (fill in the name(s) if you've got it), and point out that since the congresscritters didn't do anything to stop Mr. Doe, this must mean that tourist dollars are now swamped by the booming local industry.

Then sit back and watch the fireworks.

timvan_78

Maybe someone in a USFS office heard "bikers" and pictured the hells angels or something.
Also, what Napoleon said above, about malice and incompetence.

Dudelsack 

Irony is lost on the Federal government. If you want to make a point, you have to use stick figures and arrows.

Bikey Mikey

...and with many in upper level management for the private sector too.