rkwaki

+1,000,000
It's kinda like a crit bike...

rkwaki

I hate long asses

topflightpro

Maybe Jandro is confusing a "Training Series" for a practice races.

My team puts on a winter "Training Series" but it is only called that because then we only have to submit one permit with multiple dates to USAC. Non-training series events would require multiple permits. CDR can probably weigh in on this as well. I'm guessing Bethel series also is permitted as a training series. But "Training Series" races are still real with payouts and upgrade points on the line.

And Jandro, whenever I am on the front or in the wind, I ask myself, "Why am I here?" If I don't have a good tactical answer, then I get off the front and out of the wind.

gsteinb

whatever it is it's probably a good time to practice not chasing your teammate.

Herbie53

I chase team mates on team rides because there is no one else to chase.

jsutkeepspining

team ride /= race

merlinextraligh

Then one might use the practice crit, to learn and practice race tactics. With your two buddies up the road, your job is now to help them stay away. One way to do this is to ride false tempo at the front, i.e. you go to front and pull just fast enough that no one wants to come through and go faster, but slow enough that you aren't gaining ground on the break.

Eventually people will see what's going on and come past you. Then you get to the front again and repeat.

Another thing you can do is simply sit on the wheel of anyone that's a threat to bridge, and go with them. That will result in either shutting down the bridge attempt, or getting you bridged up with your teammates where the numbers work for your team.


The last thing you want to do is pull the group up to your friends/ teammates.

Herbie53

yeah, but a race is a race and should be treated as such.

jsutkeepspining

yeah that was the point of my statement. a team ride /= a race.

botto 

Jandro 

Yes, training series is a better term, I guess. You do get points, but no results are recorded other than a 'finish'. Thanks for the advice on the team tactics, sincerely, and I understand those, but in this scenario, friend /= teammate and we had no plan of working together for the whole race. I decided to play the part of chase instigator and no one seemed to want to give it a go. Oh well. Next week is Knights Ferry RR where I will be working with friends as a "team" and your comments will help.

Thanks.

shovelhd

Are you on a team or a make-believe team?

gsteinb

ok.

rkwaki

I have make believe friends...
(and I have to call one of them back today, just got the voice mail this morning)

botto 

remember, he is a cat 5.

Jandro 

Neither myself nor my 6-8 riding friends that started racing this year are on teams. We sort of all decided to start racing this year, carpool together and a few of them come out to a Monday night fast ride I organize, do the Rapha weekend club rides, and one of them (the first guy that took off on a solo break) was the equivalent of a cat 3/2 in Australia (winning a good amount of A grade races with a brief stint on a pro team).

rkwaki

Now now Mr. Botto, play nice

merlinextraligh

^ Can't he get the District rep to make him a 3 or at least a 4 based on his Australian results?

rkwaki

I'm going to chime in and encourage you to re-think before posting some of this stuff or you're going to get jumped.

A cat 3/2 (or 2/3) will never do a brief stint on a pro team, sorry, no compute

That's like saying that here in the US a Cat 2 did a brief stint on a Domestic Team. Not going to happen. I was offered a shot (more than once in my life) and I have been a 1 since I was 18. If he was really that strong to have accomplished that type of shot he would no longer be a 2/3 in any country.

shovelhd

OK, so make-believe team, then.

As such, to avoid further confusion and consternation, do not refer to your riding friends as teammates. We tend to take stuff literally around here. No matter how much of a joke a Cat5 team is, they do exist. You are either on one or you aren't.

Jandro 

Sorry, it's hard to make comparisons since Australia doesn't use the same category system as USAC and I'm still new to this stuff. He was winning a lot of A grade races. He was a reserve rider for a professional level team and did a handful of races with them before realizing that a) he was in over his head and b) it was killing the fun of racing for him.

Thanks for the warning, but unlike most internet denizens (or more specifically the population of BF), I have extremely thick skin. At the end of the day, if some random internet blow-hard wants to (rightfully or not) make fun of me /shrug. I'll go ride my bike.

Jandro 

Noted, thanks.

TMonk

I was on "team" (as opposed to a club) for the first time of my life last year. (Yes I know a cat 3 team is also a joke).
Meaning I was invited to join, got free clothing, shades, helmet, bike to ride...

We were all bros/homies before being invited to join and genuinely raced together. We were on the podium at atleast 2/3 of all races we went to, any everyone but me upgrades to the 2's
Not that it matters, but I had a lot going on at work and esp. in my relationship last year so training and racing instinct were more than a little lackluster, but I do believe I worked hard and contributed to the team during races.

I'm not sponsored anymore, nor should I be. I don't need cycling to be that serious of a commitment in my life.

...And now im off to complete my 17hr week. #notcommited

On the real though, I left on good terms, and I know if I perform well in my first few races and ask for my sponsorship back, ill get it.
Not sure if I want to though.

carpediemracing 

A base level race (Category E in USAC) can have multiple dates and is limited to something like $500/day in prize money. A Cat D race is limited to $2k? advertised prizes and is only valid for one day racing. Something like that.

For a long time Bethel was permitted under the Cat E level permit. We'd hold 7 races under one permit, pay out some minimum advertised prize list, I think $350 a day or something advertised. Then because there's a prize tax (a penalty levied on the promoter for advertising more prize money than the permit allows) we went to a Cat D permitting structure. This was for a couple reasons but the two main ones were that first, we could advertise more than $500 daily prizes and second, a racer could use multiple permit number results to request an upgrade. It legitimizes the results a bit more.

Back on the training race tactic thing. I understand the idea of using training races for training. For example, at our Tues Night Worlds series my thought is that once a break is 1/2 lap up the road then everyone should pull through. I'll pull through at the same pace as the others but I won't bury myself if I have a teammate up the road. On the other hand if I have no teammates up the road then I'll bury myself at the front. It's just a matter of degrees.

Teammate up the road = pull through normally
No teammate/friends up the road = pull through like mad

However... in the case where a rider wants to do more than just do a short pull AND you have a teammate up the road then what do you do? Well, because it's a training race, it's a perfect opportunity to practice tactics. Solid tactics dictates that you either protect a friend/teammate's position or you strengthen it. You protect it by not chasing, by tailing anyone that tries to go, etc. You strengthen it by reinforcing your teammate by getting up there without dragging the whole field up.

Many Cat 5s and 4s will inadvertently bring back a teammate because they tried to "reinforce" a break but dragged the whole field up instead. I've even seen a Cat 3 do this, trying to complete the last step of a complicated plan (get 2-3 guys in the break, the leader bridges up, the break goes away... problem was that everyone marked the leader and he inadvertently closed down a 30 second gap to the break over a 45 minute period... I benefited as I went flying through the break in the sprint - we caught the break going into the sprint).

So if you have a friend up the road that isn't in a solid position (5-10-15-20 seconds gap) then to practice tactics you should not be pulling at the front. What you should be doing is doing what I said before - sit in, build reserves, and sharply attack the field. Break away cleanly, solo or with one other rider for every 10 seconds gap (so a 50 second gap you want 4 allies to go with you), bridge hard, and now you can help your friend/s up the road.

A couple years ago I reprimanded a teammate of mine after a Tues Night race. He was a newly minted Cat 4, strong, works super hard, super good guy, generous to a fault (actually most of my teammates are like that). We as a team had a decent break up the road, I think we had one or two teammates up there.

I wanted to try and get up there because I wanted to shed this stereotype of being a sit-and-wait racer but I understood that dragging the field up isn't a sound tactic. Therefore I waited until I had a teammate behind me, just one rider in front, and launched a ferocious counter attack as the rider pulling started to fade. Any savvy teammate would not budge at all if their teammate directly in front of them attacked. Instead they'd continue doing exactly what they're doing, acting as sort of a decoy. It can take a second or three for others to react and that's enough to open a gap. With even a small gap the whole "well maybe someone else will go" psychology starts working and it could be 5 or 10 or 20 seconds before someone reacts. By then it's too late. Even if someone goes as soon as they can if I jump coming out of a turn (I did) then they have to finish turning before they can go. This buys me a half second or second alone.

Well my very enthusiastic Cat 4 teammate did what I call a "Me too!" attack. He jumped as hard as he could as soon as he saw me jump. He had already lost about 3-4 bike lengths because I approached the turn super aggressively. When he went the riders on his wheel followed. Therefore my gap, instead of 10 seconds at the end of a couple straights, was closer to 10 feet.

My teammate absolutely buried himself to try and follow me. This was work that he shouldn't have done. He should have been on the wheel of the guy doing that work. Even if my attack failed there'd be one very antsy guy that just used a match, used part of his reserves, and would be just a bit weaker later in the race.

I figured that he'd be a bit cooked so I went again shortly thereafter, once I got things set up again. He was on my wheel, I was on a guy's wheel who took a hard pull, and when he was just about to pull off I jumped super hard.

(Because the field was single file, because the pace was high, and because other teammates had cooked themselves just before, the Cat 4 in question was the only teammate around me.)

Again my Cat 4 teammate jumped as hard as he could. He was probably 50 feet behind me but doggedly "trying to help me", i.e. doing a "Me too!" attack.

Again the field sat on his wheel as he neutralized my counter.

I decided that I should shut down my efforts because the break wasn't really established and my counters had caused the gap to close significantly (I'd only try to bridge if the break was under 15 seconds ahead so taking just 5-8 seconds off their lead would be significant).

After the race (I totally forget how the race ended) I found my exhausted Cat 4 teammate. He was proud that he could follow an "experienced Cat 3's attacks" (me) and that he was in position to do so. He didn't realize that I tried to set it up like that.

"Dude, when a teammate attacks hard right in front of you what do you do?"
"I go help?"
"No. You sit tight and pretend nothing happened. You let the teammate do what they can. They take the risk, they either blow up or reap the reward. You never, ever hit the wind behind your teammate unless no one is on your wheel. You wait until someone goes and you follow them. Then, if they sit up, and there's no one behind you, you jump as hard as you can. But if there's someone behind you you don't pull through, you follow the guy that pulls off and wave the guy behind you forward. When you're sitting last wheel then you can think about attacking the chase."
"Oh."
"When you chased me you brought the whole field up to me. The reason why I attacked when you were on my wheel was so I could buy myself a second or two to get away before the field reacted."
"Oh."
"I call it the 'Me Too' attack when a teammate chases a teammate's attack. It's a basic error that happens all the time in the 5s and 4s."
"Oh."
"You rode really strong though. I couldn't shake you. Hahaha."
"I'm sorry."
"No biggie. It's Tues Night Worlds. This is where we learn this stuff."

Check out this clip. I took it on a Tues Night Worlds race. Go to about 2:00 in. There's a small break up that goes up the road. We don't catch it for 30 minutes. My teammate counters. I watch him go even though I'm at the front. Then I mark a huge move immediately, then another one. I pull a little when I'm in a little group but in the field I don't pull. The race goes on from there but you'll get the point. Look at how hard guys are going when they counter. There is no chance of everyone following and almost all of them are single riders making huge moves, trying to bridge a small gap before it gets too big. Finally, when the local Cat 1 team decides to shut it down they bring the break back in a hurry.

rkwaki

That was a great post. My experience has been that guys often want the perks without producing. They want the free crap yet take offence when team management get on their backs about producing. There is a cost that comes with the 'perceived' free stuff. I know that our team management was very disappointed in things last year as most of the Elite team raced very little. In fact I believe that in 2012 though I only did 4 races that I put the best result up for the team placing 44th in our home crit (field of 100+, represented by a good deal of domestic pro teams). My young teammate also had a stellar year but that was it for the team. The 3s had a great year and were massive in numbers alone.

Sponsorship is a double edged sword for sure.