Cup and cone vs sealed
#26
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This can be done with regular hubs too by clamping the wheel to the *outside* of the frame with the lever end inside the dropout. This leaves one of the bearing locknut/cone assemblies available for adjustment.
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#27
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Terminology is a problem here... I think you are referring to 'cartridge bearings'.
Both cartridge and cup and cone bearings can be well sealed or poorly sealed. In isolation, a simple air dam seal in a standard cart bearing is wholly inadequate when a bike is used in wet conditions. But if this air dam is reinforced with a second outer seal, separated with an air gap, then the sealing is acceptable.
Newer Shimano and Campagnolo (the top end ones) feature cup and cone bearings and are very well sealed indeed. Inner and outer rubber seals with an air gap.
I mountain biked for 5 years with a set of Shimano LX hubs. There were many times that the bike was fully submerged during creek crossings, and several times were the bike was so muddy that the wheels were immobilized. The LX hubs went through hell and back on a weekly basis. Mainly out of curiosity, I cracked them open at the 5 year mark to find minty fresh factory grease. The mid-range Shimano hubs are an amazing bargain.
Both cartridge and cup and cone bearings can be well sealed or poorly sealed. In isolation, a simple air dam seal in a standard cart bearing is wholly inadequate when a bike is used in wet conditions. But if this air dam is reinforced with a second outer seal, separated with an air gap, then the sealing is acceptable.
Newer Shimano and Campagnolo (the top end ones) feature cup and cone bearings and are very well sealed indeed. Inner and outer rubber seals with an air gap.
I mountain biked for 5 years with a set of Shimano LX hubs. There were many times that the bike was fully submerged during creek crossings, and several times were the bike was so muddy that the wheels were immobilized. The LX hubs went through hell and back on a weekly basis. Mainly out of curiosity, I cracked them open at the 5 year mark to find minty fresh factory grease. The mid-range Shimano hubs are an amazing bargain.
#28
Senior Member
How long can a set of cup and cone hubs last?
Several of the posters here have claimed that cartridge-bearing hubs are superior (not) because the bearings can be replaced if they go bad, whereas cup and cone hubs are throwaways.
First, it takes an immense amount of abuse to kill a mid-range or better Shimano hub. As in years of salt-water scuba bike polo or regularly using a pressure-washer to clean the bike. But working in a high-volume bike Co-op, I've seen many cup and cone hubs that need work. Mind you, these hubs were produced in the millions, so statistically, these hubs are not over-represented.
90% of the crunchy Shimano hubs that I see can be fixed with a new complement of ball bearings ($2), new cones (scavenged from damaged wheels - $5) and fresh grease of course. We have buckets of replacement cones and axle parts. It is only rarely that a hub is so abused that the cups are pitted. But these can be replaced too! Using the same tools and technique as replacing hub cartridge bearings.
I just pulled this exercise off on a donated Dura-Ace (freewheel) hub. The cones, balls and cups were pitted beyond repair, and the 'grease' remaining in the hub was a black sludge mixed with metal shavings. Obviously, this hub has led a hard life and had never seen any care and attention.
I punched out the old cups and replaced them with ones from an old wrecked Campy Record rear hub - exact dimensional fit. Cones and balls were an easy replacement. Hub is good as new, and good for another few 10's of thousands of miles. Or more if serviced at yearly intervals.
Several of the posters here have claimed that cartridge-bearing hubs are superior (not) because the bearings can be replaced if they go bad, whereas cup and cone hubs are throwaways.
First, it takes an immense amount of abuse to kill a mid-range or better Shimano hub. As in years of salt-water scuba bike polo or regularly using a pressure-washer to clean the bike. But working in a high-volume bike Co-op, I've seen many cup and cone hubs that need work. Mind you, these hubs were produced in the millions, so statistically, these hubs are not over-represented.
90% of the crunchy Shimano hubs that I see can be fixed with a new complement of ball bearings ($2), new cones (scavenged from damaged wheels - $5) and fresh grease of course. We have buckets of replacement cones and axle parts. It is only rarely that a hub is so abused that the cups are pitted. But these can be replaced too! Using the same tools and technique as replacing hub cartridge bearings.
I just pulled this exercise off on a donated Dura-Ace (freewheel) hub. The cones, balls and cups were pitted beyond repair, and the 'grease' remaining in the hub was a black sludge mixed with metal shavings. Obviously, this hub has led a hard life and had never seen any care and attention.
I punched out the old cups and replaced them with ones from an old wrecked Campy Record rear hub - exact dimensional fit. Cones and balls were an easy replacement. Hub is good as new, and good for another few 10's of thousands of miles. Or more if serviced at yearly intervals.
#29
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Yeah, I think I'll take my Dura Ace cup-and-cone hubs over just about anything, thank you.
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Is cup-and-cone technology still used anywhere other than in bicycles?
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#32
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None that I can think of off hand. However, the general concept of an angular contact or axial thrust bearing with a threaded preload/clearance adjustment is still done in many millions, if not billions, of parts per year.
#33
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How long can a set of cup and cone hubs last?
Several of the posters here have claimed that cartridge-bearing hubs are superior (not) because the bearings can be replaced if they go bad, whereas cup and cone hubs are throwaways.
First, it takes an immense amount of abuse to kill a mid-range or better Shimano hub. As in years of salt-water scuba bike polo or regularly using a pressure-washer to clean the bike. But working in a high-volume bike Co-op, I've seen many cup and cone hubs that need work. Mind you, these hubs were produced in the millions, so statistically, these hubs are not over-represented.
Several of the posters here have claimed that cartridge-bearing hubs are superior (not) because the bearings can be replaced if they go bad, whereas cup and cone hubs are throwaways.
First, it takes an immense amount of abuse to kill a mid-range or better Shimano hub. As in years of salt-water scuba bike polo or regularly using a pressure-washer to clean the bike. But working in a high-volume bike Co-op, I've seen many cup and cone hubs that need work. Mind you, these hubs were produced in the millions, so statistically, these hubs are not over-represented.
90% of the crunchy Shimano hubs that I see can be fixed with a new complement of ball bearings ($2), new cones (scavenged from damaged wheels - $5) and fresh grease of course. We have buckets of replacement cones and axle parts. It is only rarely that a hub is so abused that the cups are pitted. But these can be replaced too! Using the same tools and technique as replacing hub cartridge bearings.
I just pulled this exercise off on a donated Dura-Ace (freewheel) hub. The cones, balls and cups were pitted beyond repair, and the 'grease' remaining in the hub was a black sludge mixed with metal shavings. Obviously, this hub has led a hard life and had never seen any care and attention.
I punched out the old cups and replaced them with ones from an old wrecked Campy Record rear hub - exact dimensional fit. Cones and balls were an easy replacement. Hub is good as new, and good for another few 10's of thousands of miles. Or more if serviced at yearly intervals.
I punched out the old cups and replaced them with ones from an old wrecked Campy Record rear hub - exact dimensional fit. Cones and balls were an easy replacement. Hub is good as new, and good for another few 10's of thousands of miles. Or more if serviced at yearly intervals.
Compare that to a cartridge bearing hub. I can measure them and get the replacement bearing quickly and easily from just about anywhere that sells bearings. Many of the ones on bicycles can even be picked up from an auto parts store.
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Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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#34
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Adventures in replacing hub cartridge bearings
Been through every one of these - several times:
Been through every one of these - several times:
- Cannot remove bearing because it is corroded tight into the hub shell. Removal efforts eventually damages hub shell.
- Cannot remove cart bearing because it wasn't meant to be removed by anyone but the manufacturer. Wouldn't want any wanabee mechanics violating our gear, and we want to keep our customers tied to us... Will take a month coming and going.
- Hub shell gets ovalized on either removal or installation of replacement bearing. New bearings never seat correctly after this. Yeah, I know this can be categorized as pilot error, but we're all human.
- Bearing takes 3 weeks on special order. Bike shops keep cartridge bearings in stock? Ha.
- Cost: shop says that the uber-rare & precision 6001-2RS bearing will take 3 weeks to arrive, cost $25 and we will need to install it for you. Add $75 shop time.
- The hard sell: shop says that a ceramic upgrade will save you 45 watts per wheel, but cost $100 per bearing. Shop damages ceramic bearing on install.
- Motivation: shop actually has the uber-rare 6001 bearing in stock, but couldn't be bothered to even look for it when you really need a new wheel. Or better: a new bike.
#35
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- Cannot remove bearing because it is corroded tight into the hub shell. Removal efforts eventually damages hub shell.
- Cannot remove cart bearing because it wasn't meant to be removed by anyone but the manufacturer. Wouldn't want any wanabee mechanics violating our gear, and we want to keep our customers tied to us... Will take a month coming and going.
- Hub shell gets ovalized on either removal or installation of replacement bearing. New bearings never seat correctly after this. Yeah, I know this can be categorized as pilot error, but we're all human.
- Bearing takes 3 weeks on special order. Bike shops keep cartridge bearings in stock? Ha.
- Cost: shop says that the uber-rare & precision 6001-2RS bearing will take 3 weeks to arrive, cost $25 and we will need to install it for you. Add $75 shop time.
- The hard sell: shop says that a ceramic upgrade will save you 45 watts per wheel, but cost $100 per bearing. Shop damages ceramic bearing on install.
- Motivation: shop actually has the uber-rare 6001 bearing in stock, but couldn't be bothered to even look for it when you really need a new wheel. Or better: a new bike.
I can also find ceramic 6001-2RS bearings for as little as $15. They can be pricier but they don’t have to be. And, again, they are not rare nor even propietary.
Finally, I didn’t say that bike shops kept cartridge bearings in stock…the bearings seldom need replacement so shop don’t need to carry them in stock. I said you can get the bearings at auto parts stores. The 6002-2RS is a clutch pilot bearing. Granted clutch’s aren’t really that prevalent anymore so an auto parts store probably won’t carry too many in inventory either. But you can easily get them on-line.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#36
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I do something similar to Shimano’s indexed system. I mark the axle so I can return the axle to the same clock position. And then I mark the adjustment cone so I can try it in different clock positions.
It kind of works but it’s a tedious and frustrating exercise that wastes my time and makes me angry.