Racer Tech Thread
11-07-16, 03:58 PM
#4176
commu*ist spy
Longer stems feel more stable at higher speeds, because they place the hands further forward on the bike. This is assuming you can move around enough to get more body weight forward also.
For stem stiffness I prefer a stiff stem but one that fits is more important.
Having said that the whole reason I went to compact bars was that I tried a set (FSA Wing Compacts) and realized that holy smokes these bars are stiff compared to my 15-20 year old crit bend bars. So I got a stem that I hoped would be stiff enough so I could use the stiffer bars.
Also smaller frames... I don't think size has much to do with stiffness, at least not in the range for one rider. I used a size M and size S Giant TCR, never really noticed a difference in stiffness. However a similar sized different bike (Merlin Ti, 55 cm) was insanely flexible compared to the size M Giant.
I did request a super short frame for me but that's because then I could have more post showing (and the top tube would be below my knees most of the time). Seriously though it was more so the bike would feel more throwable while I was out of the saddle, not for any other reason.
Size is more a fit thing. Small frames allow bars to be placed lower due to typically shorter head tubes, which I find conducive toward better sprinting out of the saddle. If I never sprinted out of the saddle a higher position would be fine, but out of the saddle the lower drops is critical for me.
One of the interesting examples of custom fit is Benatti's bike when he was with Liquigas. It was a 52 cm Cannondale with a 58 cm top tube. I actually tried (very lightly) to get one for myself, although a 50 cm with a 57 top tube would be better for me. I figured if they were making a bunch of 52x58s maybe I could buy one. No such luck.
For stem stiffness I prefer a stiff stem but one that fits is more important.
Having said that the whole reason I went to compact bars was that I tried a set (FSA Wing Compacts) and realized that holy smokes these bars are stiff compared to my 15-20 year old crit bend bars. So I got a stem that I hoped would be stiff enough so I could use the stiffer bars.
Also smaller frames... I don't think size has much to do with stiffness, at least not in the range for one rider. I used a size M and size S Giant TCR, never really noticed a difference in stiffness. However a similar sized different bike (Merlin Ti, 55 cm) was insanely flexible compared to the size M Giant.
I did request a super short frame for me but that's because then I could have more post showing (and the top tube would be below my knees most of the time). Seriously though it was more so the bike would feel more throwable while I was out of the saddle, not for any other reason.
Size is more a fit thing. Small frames allow bars to be placed lower due to typically shorter head tubes, which I find conducive toward better sprinting out of the saddle. If I never sprinted out of the saddle a higher position would be fine, but out of the saddle the lower drops is critical for me.
One of the interesting examples of custom fit is Benatti's bike when he was with Liquigas. It was a 52 cm Cannondale with a 58 cm top tube. I actually tried (very lightly) to get one for myself, although a 50 cm with a 57 top tube would be better for me. I figured if they were making a bunch of 52x58s maybe I could buy one. No such luck.
Last edited by spectastic; 11-07-16 at 04:05 PM.
11-07-16, 03:59 PM
#4177
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all of those bb's are super expensive. $60+ for a stupid set of bearings?? hell no. Personally, I would look at those BB30 adapters that press into the frame, and converts it into BSA threading. You then get to use the standard, cheap, BB's that are designed with the cranks they're used for, rather than some niche, expensive bb. but that's just me
11-07-16, 04:02 PM
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LBS says WMFG.
They said for the Venge (2015) the Praxis was supposed to expand in the middle. The Wheels MFG uses the internal threads to tighten things. I took their advice and so having bought several (4) Wheels MFG BBs for junior and team, do not have any 1st hand Praxis experience. I also changed bearings on juniors once (euro water thing) and that worked well.
Note you have bearing choices. I believe they are all Enduro something.
They said for the Venge (2015) the Praxis was supposed to expand in the middle. The Wheels MFG uses the internal threads to tighten things. I took their advice and so having bought several (4) Wheels MFG BBs for junior and team, do not have any 1st hand Praxis experience. I also changed bearings on juniors once (euro water thing) and that worked well.
Note you have bearing choices. I believe they are all Enduro something.
I believe you're paying for both the adapters and the bearings. The bearings can be changed out, but the adapters create a tighter BB and eliminate (in my experience) the creaks and squeals associated with BB30.
11-07-16, 04:04 PM
#4180
commu*ist spy
@hack asked about two in about the same price range. I have found issues with press fit in the squeak dept before.
11-07-16, 04:09 PM
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The question was Praxis vs Wheels Mfg. Not vs adapters. I did not ask or reply about adapters as they were not being considered in his post.
11-07-16, 04:37 PM
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You're not having to pony up $60 each time your BB needs servicing. Pop out the old bearings, pop in new bearings. $10 - $80 depending on your preference for steel vs ceramic.
I'd rather drop $60 on the threaded BB conversion than deal with BB30 bearings and some adapters that plug into them. At that point, cost is a wash anyway. Adapters are $30? and the BB kit is $30? There's the $60 and you're changing out bearings as often as you would with the conversion kit.
I'd rather drop $60 on the threaded BB conversion than deal with BB30 bearings and some adapters that plug into them. At that point, cost is a wash anyway. Adapters are $30? and the BB kit is $30? There's the $60 and you're changing out bearings as often as you would with the conversion kit.
11-07-16, 07:04 PM
#4184
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so you can actually tell when a handlebar is stiff, or when a stem is stiff, etc? because I can't tell any difference at all. I mean people always go for the 3t arx or thompson, saying they have the highest stiffness/weight, when the weight of the stem is so trivial compared to everything else, and stiffness of stem is pretty secondary to other things like frame, and fork stiffness. I wonder whether it's more marketing/bling than actual utility. What I personally look for is that the face plate has 4 bolts that are spread out from each other, to make a solid contact with the bars, and that the face plate is a one piece, not one of those 2 piece face plates. other than that, what could be so different?
I was hoping that the bars really didn't make a huge difference so I put the crit bend bars on the 3T stem (with reducer spacers which, if anything, should make the bars stiffer). Went and did one crit on them after riding on the trainer for a while (2 months?). First thing I did after the race was move back to the FSA bars with the steel stem.
Incidentally steel stem (not oversized) feels much more flexible than the 3T stem, with the same FSA bars. But I have no choice so it's the steel stem for now.
My stem/bar timeline:
1. 120mm Ritchey stem (-17, Road, Comp, WCS, so 3 different models), 43 cm 3ttt Gimondi or 42 cm Mavic 315 bars (both are crit bend bars). "Baseline"
2. 140mm 3T team stem (-17), 42cm FSA Wing Comp aluminum bars. Also Deda 14 cm stem (-19). "Much stiffer"
3. 140mm 3T team stem (-17), 43cm 3ttt Gimondi bars. "Are my bars about to break?" noodly.
4. 145mm steel stem (-32), 42cm FSA Wing Comp bars. "Better than the noodly, not as nice as having the 3T stem".
Forks were 3T aero fork (team? 350g or so) and ENVE 2.0 (350g or so). I can't tell the difference between the two. Both are more flexible than the Cannondale Slice tapered steerer set up. Also I think they are more flexible than the Reynolds Ouzo fork I had (alum fork crown) but it's splitting hairs.
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11-07-16, 07:29 PM
#4185
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Your stem is awe inspiring. There is one other guy in the area that might be as flexible as you are, he has his tt bike cockpit so low that he removed the headset top cap and has the stem resting directly on the bearings. Bless you both.
11-07-16, 07:49 PM
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At the risk of being made fun of...I'll post about me.
I have always been big, and on the stronger side of big. I was not particularly fit, but I was big and strong. And I raceed in the days of expander bolt stems and threaded steering tubes. I could and did break parts in the old alloy and steel days. I got into tandem riding/racing with a gorilla stoker and had a lot of stem, parts and frame issues.
Add 20 years. Everything is sooo much better [on the bike]. I use an FSA older carbon setup and it is fine. I sprint very little, am weaker - and while still big with north of 185lbs of lean mass - just leave it there, I don't think I could rip parts off the bike now.
As 99% know my kid races. He is not known for sprinting, but I believe that is where he is best. His teammate has a huge stiff stem and bars. My son just a light climbing setup. What is different is I know, and he never thinks of it, that all those parts are going to stay on the bike. I expect he is pulling up on those bars as hard as 70% of the 150lb road riders are. So as a road rider he sprints and things flex and that is how it is and nothing is thought of it. If it were track riding, particularly starting, this is a whole different thing and a stiff bar and stem seem pretty important. For road sprints - I think it is what you like. If you are a grit sprint specialist and doing a dead-lift between your pedals and bar, well not my area to comment, but I have seen those guys beaten a number of times by those just spooling up the power.
I have always been big, and on the stronger side of big. I was not particularly fit, but I was big and strong. And I raceed in the days of expander bolt stems and threaded steering tubes. I could and did break parts in the old alloy and steel days. I got into tandem riding/racing with a gorilla stoker and had a lot of stem, parts and frame issues.
Add 20 years. Everything is sooo much better [on the bike]. I use an FSA older carbon setup and it is fine. I sprint very little, am weaker - and while still big with north of 185lbs of lean mass - just leave it there, I don't think I could rip parts off the bike now.
As 99% know my kid races. He is not known for sprinting, but I believe that is where he is best. His teammate has a huge stiff stem and bars. My son just a light climbing setup. What is different is I know, and he never thinks of it, that all those parts are going to stay on the bike. I expect he is pulling up on those bars as hard as 70% of the 150lb road riders are. So as a road rider he sprints and things flex and that is how it is and nothing is thought of it. If it were track riding, particularly starting, this is a whole different thing and a stiff bar and stem seem pretty important. For road sprints - I think it is what you like. If you are a grit sprint specialist and doing a dead-lift between your pedals and bar, well not my area to comment, but I have seen those guys beaten a number of times by those just spooling up the power.
11-07-16, 09:05 PM
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11-07-16, 09:18 PM
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have you ever done A/B comparisons of multiple stems with everything else constant? or multiple bars?
for me, doing actual testing made some things clear that previously i might not have felt mattered. what was eye-opening to me years ago was when i had a bar/stem setup where i thought the bars might not be stiff, so i swapped them out for something definitely stiffer. the exercise actually made me realize that the stem was a weak link, despite others saying that model was 'plenty stiff.'
ymmv, of course, and perhaps you might not be sensitive to changes if you have tested them or might not care. however, to suggest that others cannot tell the difference because there is too much else that is going on in the system is not fair.
11-07-16, 09:23 PM
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11-07-16, 09:32 PM
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yes.
have you ever done A/B comparisons of multiple stems with everything else constant? or multiple bars?
for me, doing actual testing made some things clear that previously i might not have felt mattered. what was eye-opening to me years ago was when i had a bar/stem setup where i thought the bars might not be stiff, so i swapped them out for something definitely stiffer. the exercise actually made me realize that the stem was a weak link, despite others saying that model was 'plenty stiff.'
ymmv, of course, and perhaps you might not be sensitive to changes if you have tested them or might not care. however, to suggest that others cannot tell the difference because there is too much else that is going on in the system is not fair.
have you ever done A/B comparisons of multiple stems with everything else constant? or multiple bars?
for me, doing actual testing made some things clear that previously i might not have felt mattered. what was eye-opening to me years ago was when i had a bar/stem setup where i thought the bars might not be stiff, so i swapped them out for something definitely stiffer. the exercise actually made me realize that the stem was a weak link, despite others saying that model was 'plenty stiff.'
ymmv, of course, and perhaps you might not be sensitive to changes if you have tested them or might not care. however, to suggest that others cannot tell the difference because there is too much else that is going on in the system is not fair.
11-07-16, 10:49 PM
#4193
commu*ist spy
yes.
have you ever done A/B comparisons of multiple stems with everything else constant? or multiple bars?
for me, doing actual testing made some things clear that previously i might not have felt mattered. what was eye-opening to me years ago was when i had a bar/stem setup where i thought the bars might not be stiff, so i swapped them out for something definitely stiffer. the exercise actually made me realize that the stem was a weak link, despite others saying that model was 'plenty stiff.'
ymmv, of course, and perhaps you might not be sensitive to changes if you have tested them or might not care. however, to suggest that others cannot tell the difference because there is too much else that is going on in the system is not fair.
have you ever done A/B comparisons of multiple stems with everything else constant? or multiple bars?
for me, doing actual testing made some things clear that previously i might not have felt mattered. what was eye-opening to me years ago was when i had a bar/stem setup where i thought the bars might not be stiff, so i swapped them out for something definitely stiffer. the exercise actually made me realize that the stem was a weak link, despite others saying that model was 'plenty stiff.'
ymmv, of course, and perhaps you might not be sensitive to changes if you have tested them or might not care. however, to suggest that others cannot tell the difference because there is too much else that is going on in the system is not fair.
Likewise. Compared bars and stems and I could tell a difference. It was more evident in bars than the stem to me. I've ended up using Pro Vibe 7s bars as a reasonable compromise between cost, stiffness, and weight. Haven't tried their Cavendish/Sprint model, but suspect they're rather rigid.
11-08-16, 12:14 AM
#4194
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Originally Posted by spectastic
I've been using fsa omega compact, and just ordered fsa gossamer compact (different width) for my racing bike next season. do you guys know these to be decent, or not so good? I can't seem to find much data on them.
anyway, i haven't personally used that bar.
sometimes you add a stiff bar and realize your stem's a noodle...
11-08-16, 12:15 AM
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don't get too hung up on other peoples' setups because:
1) sometimes what people think of as flexible just means someone's got short legs and long arms (it happens!);
and/or
2) lower is not always more aero.
1) sometimes what people think of as flexible just means someone's got short legs and long arms (it happens!);
and/or
2) lower is not always more aero.
11-08-16, 01:00 AM
#4196
commu*ist spy
screw it. I'm just going to go ahead and assume that my FSA alloy handlebars are good enough. I'm using 3t stems with them.
11-08-16, 01:06 AM
#4197
Senior Member
I've had different stems on one bike and not noticed any stiffness difference. But then, I also don't notice wheel difference or tire difference. I don't even notice fit difference all that much. Or saddles unless it's a really convex saddle. I do, however notice handlebar differences. The carbon bars I've had definitely flex more. Not bad, just was weird to adjust to back when I switched a few years ago. Like them alot though. And those weird bars with the abrupt bend in the drops are annoying.
11-08-16, 01:30 AM
#4198
commu*ist spy
i can definitely feel the difference between 23 vs 25 or 28 tires. I also notice a pretty drastic difference in 1 cm of reach difference. handlebar is just not something I really pay attention to, although I do notice flexing in my frame when I break 1 kW, and some of that is probably the handlebars/stem. I'm inclined to dismiss that as trivial loss though. not going to get hung up on 1% gains via equipment unless I get sponsored or something
11-08-16, 07:28 AM
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11-08-16, 07:33 AM
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