nesposito

I was lucky. I emailed him within an hour or two and he happens to live about 10 minutes from me. I really didn't need another bike but it was too nice to walk away from. What other pics do you guys want posted?

texaspandj

I'm on a Centurion Carbon Ironman posting frenzy. Here's my latest Ironman the "Midnight Rider". It rides very nicely.

AustinFitz

I really love how you've built this up! BEAUTIFUL! The pink cable housing was a perfect choice!

Desertrats97

Getting Excited about that same frame build. Carbon-r
How does it ride. i heard they are not that stiff but are comfortable.

It might replace my schwinn as daily driver.

How does it compare to lets say late 80's steel bikes . other than weight.

RobbieTunes

I've probably posted this a couple of times, but no problem doing it again.

The Carbon-R was released in the Asian market with some changes, a year after the 1988 Ironman Carbon. The Asian market was a-not a Dave Scott fan base, and b-not licensed for the Ironman branding. seypat, here on BF, also has an Asian market version of the "Miami Vice" model a.k.a. the Ironman, also not labeled an "Ironman." (but it matches up).

The 1988 Ironman Carbon was spec'd with 2x7 Dura Ace, and I imagine if I'd ever got one with that group, I'd have kept it that way. The freehub was 7sp and 12-19. I'll bet it was a fun setup. It was definitely lighter, but many people expected it to be even lighter than it was. The frame certainly was, but 1-2 lbs overall on a frame doesn't seem like much on a complete bike, perhaps.

Scott actually rode a Ironman Carbon in at least 1 or 2 championship-level tri's, but the photos I've seen do not include the fork that came on the Ironman Carbon, a round-shouldered alloy version that was light, and pretty, and more flexible than most preferred. In one photo, it sure looks like a Kinesis fork, complete with the alloy crown, and then painted in the Hard Rock scheme.

The crown of the IM Carbon fork was well outside the rim circumference of the wheel, and if you've ever had a gyro toy, you know of that effect. This bike had it. I've owned 3 of the Ironman Carbon models, and all three had more fork flex than I was comfortable with, but only in cornering at, say, 25mph and over (basically once a ride for me, same spot every time). The wishbone rear on mine did not seem to be a problem. The bike, while smooth as silk in a straight line, had a bit of flex to it, and the gyro effect of the fork could be unsettling. On my last Ironman Carbon (the first one actually my size), I solved the problem with a Cannondale carbon fork. It became the smoothest century bike I had.

The 1989 Carbon-R, in the Asian market, had a different fork, and slightly different wishbone. It also spec'd out with Shimano 6400/Ultegra instead of the Dura Ace.The crown of the fork was sloped much farther, to change direction well inside the rim circumference. This (on mine at least) solved the gyro problem and increased stiffness. The rear wishbone was mimicked in this manner, and I've never had any issues with flex on my '89 Carbon-R. Rides great.

Below are two examples, an Ironman Carbon with a fork swapped in, running 2x9 Ultegra, and a Carbon-R, running 2x11 Dura Ace. I can only say they are different, as the forks, wheelsets, and groups were so different, any comparison would lack credibility. I can't say if the DA 9000 makes me a bigger fan of the frame, or vice versa. No way to know, actually.

I'd still pay decent coin for another Ironman Carbon, if just to bother texaspandj with photos and PM's.

markwesti

Cool lookin' bikes RT.

canklecat

I mentioned several months ago in this and the Ironman paint jobs thread that it felt like my '89 Ironman Expert had excessive drivetrain tension that was costing me power. The Suntour GPX rear derailleur spring tension felt excessive, particularly in the pulley cage pivot.

I bought an older style Shimano 600 RD a few months ago and finally got around to cleaning, lubing and installing it Friday. I set the pulley cage pivot spring to the lower tension retaining hole. Big improvement. Especially in the big chain ring and smaller freewheel cogs.

While it's only one ride so far, a familiar 22 mile roller coaster route, it was enough to confirm my hunch that the rear derailleur had been the problem. I'm looking forward to trying again Sunday with fresher legs. I rode a hard 30something miles Thursday, shooting for some KOMs (didn't get any, but did snag a 2nd place behind a friend's KOM, and several new PRs -- and that was with the Suntour GPX RD that was too tight). So my legs were kinda stiff and sore Friday. But without even trying hard I was coming close to my better times on that same route.

To sum up, the Suntour GPX RD had way too much spring tension in the pulley cage pivot. There's no secondary position, so I'll need to drill one. Probably an easier solution than trying to find a lower tension spring. Yeah, if I had a shop I could make a new square section coiled spring, but that requires heat treating. I've done it with flat springs years ago in my old rural home even with a fairly crude shop. But now I'm in a city apartment, no space for that stuff.

The Shimano 600 RD has some interesting characteristics. I'm guessing it was originally for a 5- or 6-speed bike -- I had to back the high limit screw way out and fiddle a lot with cable tension to get reliable shifting into the smallest freewheel cog. I'll need to use a bit of thread locker to ensure that screw doesn't back out and get lost, although it still has plenty of contact inside the derailleur. It just looks odd backed out so far. Fortunately the low limit screw was set perfectly, no need to adjust it.

There's a lot less movement than the Suntour GPX RD, and so far I've used the Shimano 600 RD only in friction mode. I just assumed it won't be compatible with the Suntour GPX indexing. But I'd already switched to friction shifting a week ago just for kicks, and now I prefer it.

I've also noticed there's far less drivetrain noise with the Shimano 600 RD. Just a wild guess but the GPX inner width between the pulley cage arms may be narrower than the Shimano 600. It felt like the KMC Z72 chain was constantly clattering against the GPX RD. But it's smooth and quiet with the Shimano 600. I may try a different chain with the GPX RD after modifying the spring tension.

texaspandj

@canklecat With the over abundance of Shimano groups maybe a complete conversion may eventually be your best bet. Great frame plus modern group would produce good results.
I looked and thought I had a rear and front derailleur for you but no luck. Well maybe next donor bike will give me a surplus.
But glad to hear all is well.

RobbieTunes

Glad you got it fixed, canklecat. The myriad of options out there bode well for your riding.

canklecat

Yup, after three rides over the weekend -- Thursday with the original Suntour GPX, Friday and Sunday with the Shimano 600 rear derailleurs -- on the same routes under similarly windy conditions, I have a pretty fair indication of how much difference the replacement derailleur makes.

There's far less drivetrain drag, mostly noticeable in the lowest gear (39T chainring, 24T freewheel cog) and highest gears (52/13). The effect is less noticeable in middle gears, especially on the small chainring. I was able to beat my previous fastest times on some hills I've ridden more than 100 times, both up and down, using both gearing extremes.

I don't use a power meter but Strava's power guesstimator seems pretty accurate on climbs and flats (not so much on downhills). Looks like the rear derailleur swap was good for a roughly 7% improvement in power just by reducing drivetrain drag. I managed to average 130-142 watts, with occasional sustained efforts of 200+ watts for some undulating climbs of a mile at an average 3% grade; and some shorter distances over 300 watts.

For me, that's huge. This time last year I was struggling to sustain over 100 watts. Some of the improvement is due to better conditioning, but a few equipment tweaks have helped a lot.

I have a handful of top ten Strava segments, but that's mostly due to taking advantage of tailwinds and sprinting or high energy efforts for 2-5 minutes. Sure, most Strava top tens have some tailwind assist, or other advantages (leadout partner, etc.). But realistically when I compare my overall average power and speed with the other folks in the top ten, it's obvious I'm loafing between segments to conserve energy, then going all out just for certain segments. The other folks with the KOMs and top tens are doing sustained efforts, some of them averaging 20 mph and 200-250 watts for entire rides of 30-70 miles. That's way beyond my capabilities right now.

canklecat

BTW, now that I have the derailleur and drivetrain issue mostly sorted out, on to the next pesky problem... just wondering if anyone else has encountered a similar issue.

I'm considering either a shorter stem or, as a possible alternative, a handlebar that reduces the reach a bit. My '89 Ironman Expert is stock, original 110mm stem (C-T-C), Win Pista bar. I'm thinking maybe a 100mm, even 90mm stem might work better for me.

As an alternative the Nitto Noodle handlebar would reduce the reach a bit and provide a flatter surface to the hood, but wouldn't reduce the distance to the drops. The Soma Highway One bar looks like it might reduce the distance to the drops and be a bit more comfortable.

Due to an old C2 vertebrae neck injury and chronic pain, the reach on the Ironman isn't quite right for me. I can manage rides up to around 40 miles but beyond that it gets really painful.

And after watching several bike fit adviser videos, it appears I'm showing the symptoms of a fit that's not quite right for me. Namely, I'm tending to cruise with my hands well back from the hoods because it's too uncomfortable to stay on the hoods for long -- I usually do that only in traffic, where there's a risk of cars pulling out suddenly, opening doors without looking, etc.

Otherwise I usually ride the hoods only for better aero position, with my torso as low as I can comfortably get, forearms as close to parallel with ground as I can manage. I only occasionally use the drops for a little change of position, on fast downhills, etc. If I stay in the drops too long my vision gets blurry from the nerve being pinched and neck cramping.

I know I'm bunching up my shoulders and have to constantly remind myself to relax, but it doesn't work because the reach and fit are wrong.

I can tell on longer rides, after about 20 miles, I'm fidgeting around so much that I'm wasting energy. And I tend to avoid faster group rides because I don't want to be distracted by neck pain, vision problems, impaired bike handling, etc., after about 20 miles. On a really good day I can just about hang on with the group, but it feels like I'm on the verge of exhaustion and wobbling, while everyone else looks fairly comfortable. So I'm at the point of considering minor tweaks such as bike fit, since my conditioning has improved quite a bit.

BTW, I'm not considering aero bars right now. Not safe for group rides, very few opportunities on solo rides where I'd feel it's safe to use them, and I'm not sure my neck will ever permit that position anyway. Mostly I'd like to sort out a better basic bike fit first.

RobbieTunes

CC,

The original stem was a Nitto Young, and the bar should be a Nitto B115, not a Win Pista, unless I've misread the markings on mine. I'm also not sure original stem was 110, but it could have been. The 56cm had either a 90mm or 100mm stem, I am not sure.

Since stems are about fit, I encourage you to find one that does. I only have one to offer, a black SR Custom, in 95mm, but it's yours if you want it.

Bars, I can only say I continue to like the Nitto B115 due to it's medium drops and long flat real estate in them. The Noodle is a very comfortable bar, however, and bars, like stems, go to fit, so go for it.

I agree on safety issues with aero bars in groups, and urge you to find your fit on the drops, so you can relax on the tops....

texaspandj

@canklecat The '89 I have was stock, with win pista stem and bars. All other stock Ironman years were nitto bars and stem.
It may be due to the Ironman's generally longer top tube that you need a shorter stem. I had a pinarello the same size as one if my Ironman, however the top tube was shorter.
I think I have a shorter stem but it's black, I'll check if you're interested.

fleslider 

@nesposito and @texaspandj ; you fellas mind if i post the images of your bikes to my vintage-centurion site? I dont have a pic of a stock Carbon Ironman and the Yellow 88 Master color combinations posted

nesposito

Fire away. I don't mind at all.

texaspandj

If you're asking me, yes go for it.
Pink housing and pedals not original.

fleslider 

not sure if im SOL, but if the cover was still available i would love to have it for my MV that is on display at the Bike COOP that i am involved with.

canklecat

I was going by the info on the Vintage Centurion site, with a graphic for components that looks like it was photocopied from the catalog. The Winpista bar and SR stem seem to be stock for this particular model -- '89 Expert.

The catalog seemed to describe the stem reach as 12.5cm or 125mm. I'm guessing that's measured end to end rather than center to center. When I measure mine end to end I get 13cm/130mm.

The more stretched out position is probably okay for someone younger and fitter with better mobility. But I usually need a day off between longer rides to rest my neck and shoulders due to the fit and old injury issues. Since June when I got the bike I've fiddled with the stem height, bar angle (I have it very slightly tipped back for now), saddle position, etc., but I've exhausted the possibilities for this combination of components.

Yup, if you folks have a shorter stem for sale I'd like to give it a try. Color, appearance, brand, etc., doesn't matter. As long as it functions. I'll give it a try first with my existing Winpista bar and try that for awhile before deciding on another bar. The existing bar may be just fine with the right stem to fix the reach issue. I don't have any discomfort problems with my hands, wrists, elbows, lower back or hips, etc., just the neck and shoulders.

fleslider 

the specs image for the 89 Expert is from a magazine review... wish i had the whole article

RobbieTunes

I'll PM you, cc, and get a stem in the post for you.

Reynolds 531 

In facebook marketplace, $100 /919753341540052

xiaoman1 

Tony are you still checking your PM's or only enjoying the CF Ironman.
Ben

texaspandj

Both.
OK I'll just say it, the new format and me don't get along so well....yet. Man, I'm not getting any younger.

67tony 

Testing out the new photo upload feature!


1987 Dave Scott Master

RobbieTunes

Works! Thanks for the pic.