SouthFLpix

I absolutely agree. It's crazy to think how many times I've had to unclip in an emergency because a car blew through a stop sign or red light since there was 'only' a cyclist there (I guess they assumed that cars always have right of way). I now ride platforms for commuting.

Papa Tom

Oh, now it makes sense. I went to the Speedplay site and all I saw were clipless pedals. Those Specialized Bennies look pretty nice, but damn(!) they're expensive!

RandomEncounter

For those that use the platform pedals with pins, do you find them to be more or less effective than cages at keeping your feet in place when it's wet out? I always wear regular shoes on my commute and have been thinking of getting cages to keep my feet in place during the rainy season.

Jaywalk3r

Car-free for over seven years here. I also vote for BMX style pedals with pins. I'm still using the OEM Redline pedals that came on my Monocog 29er when I purchased it new. I've had no reason to replace them. My feet don't slip off of them, and I have the freedom to move my foot fore and aft into the optimal position for the current conditions (e.g., ball over spindle while spinning on flat terrain, arch over spindle when climbing steep hills). Plus, I don't need special shoes.

Papa Tom

I rode with cages (I think real cyclists call them "clips," by the way) for 19 years. They do have their advantages in that they can help you really dig in without slipping off the pedals. But they were always a nuisance at stop lights and they made chopped meat out of my sneakers in no time. I just never realized there was another option.

For me, pinned platforms are perfect. They lend tons of support to the "jump on and ride" attitude I have developed over the past few years and they are, overall, a pleasure to ride with. To answer your question, one of my first rides with them was a 60-miler I took last year that was at least half in a torrential downpour. Not once did my soaking wet, cheap new Balance sneakers slip off the pedals or even come close to it. Nor does this ever happen on my commutes.

RandomEncounter

Huh. I wonder why I wrote that, since I usually use "toe clips." I apologize for my temporary fakeness.


Thanks, this is just what I was looking for! I live in a rainy place and don't want to scuff up my shoes. I'll give these a try.

RubeRad

And note that Papa Tom's pedals (from what I can tell of the picture) have relatively smooth/round pins, so they would be at the low end of the grip spectrum (and also the low end of the shred-your-shins spectrum). Given that still performed perfectly in lots of rain, I'm sure you'll be fine.

Papa Tom

BTW: I did not post a pic of my pedals, but they ARE cheapos, so I guess you are right. Mine are Odyssey Twisted PC platforms for which I paid $17. If THESE are sufficient in the rain, I'd say ANY pinned platform should give RandomEncounter what he needs.

Also, in an earlier post, I mentioned that clips (cages, etc) have an advantage in that they keep your feet from slipping off the pedals when you are "digging in," which sounds like a contradiction of what I am saying about platforms. I was referring to how you can push extra hard on the pedals, or even pull up, when you are climbing a rough hill and not lose your footing. This has nothing to do with riding in the rain.

GovernorSilver

Never used cages myself. I have MKS Lambdas/Grip Kings on my Uptown 8. They don't stick as much to the soles as the Saints because they have little nubs rather than pins, but the surface area is so huge you can wear just about any footwear and it won't slip unless you get reckless. These MKS have been well-tested in rain, including a couple of torrential downpours. My footwear of choice last year was the Jameison Eco 2 skate shoes. Here's the MKS, with one pic of a Lamda on top of a regular MTB pedal:





I have Shimano Saints on my Renegade. Only lightly tested in rain as the rainfall this week has been very light/misty. I started riding with Adidas Climacool Boat Lace shoes, which feel great for both pedaling and walking. I found them ideal for riding in rain (with quick-dry socks) as they have holes that allow water to drain out, and they have fantastic grip on pedals. The one thing I hate the most about being caught in rain is water accumulating inside shoes. These are the Climacools:



These are the Saints:

the sci guy 

i'm not sure what kind of cages you guys have used but i've been using the cages I posted a link to in my post above for over 2 years (on multiple bikes), and my sneakers are not damaged.

tjspiel

I've ridden on a few bikes with toe clips and I can't say I remember them damaging any of my shoes but it could be because I'd usually get rid of them within a few months. I understand why some people like them but they are my least favorite type of foot retention. Flipping pedals sucks when the alternative is to have them drag on the ground. They're not so fun with sandals either.

Frankenbike77

As someone new to clipless pedals, I would recommend them.
I enjoy the added efficiency of delivering power on the upstroke - not as much as I envisioned, but significant nonetheless.

For commuting, if you do not walk a lot after cycling, you might want to consider Dual-sided SPD Pedals, w/MTB shoes, as they'll make walking around a bit easier.
(I currently use Shimano M065 MTB SPD Shoes and Shimano M530 SPD Trail Clipless pedals)
Or, if you don't want to have to worry about wearing cleats all the time, mixed platform/clipless pedals, like the Shimano M-324 pedal.
Downside of these is you may need to look down to ensure you are using the right side of the pedal

Viich

I'm very similar, just switched from toe clips, I find the difference is more than I thought it would be though.
I'm using these pedals: Wellgo R120B Sealed Bearing Road Pedals | Chain Reaction Cycles
and a pair of recessed-cleat easy to walk in shoes. (not sure on model, they're Bertrand) With the combination of the walkabout shoe and the dual-sided, I can take off with either side of the pedal and clip in after I'm moving if I want.

PaulRivers

Fyi, studies have not backed that idea up. Here's one thread on it:
Are there any scientific studies proving the benefits of clipless pedal systems? - Bicycles Stack Exchange

"...while torque during the upstroke did reduce the total positive work required during the downstroke, it did not contribute significantly to the external work done because 98.6% and 96.3% of the total work done at the low and high workloads, respectively, was done during the downstroke."
This is echoed in Physiological and biochemical determinants of elite endurance cycling performancepublished in the Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 23:93-107, 1991. There are numerous graphs showing that pedal force is only exerted between the top and bottom of the downstroke, represented by a very sharp parabola spiking at 90 degrees from vertical.

I think there have been some other studies suggesting a minor improvement in efficiency, but it's by no means a settled idea that there's any efficiency benefit to clipless.

ThermionicScott 

Being able to pull up on the pedals is absolutely a benefit in some circumstances. Whether it adds to overall efficiency is debatable, though.

Papa Tom

I always felt the upstroke benefit was more psychological than anything else. I would use the cage to pull the lower pedal up on hills or just when I wanted to "fly" a little, but I don't think it did all that much. When I started reading articles like the one above disproving the upstroke theory is exactly when I pulled the trigger and switched from clips to platforms. Now I don't think I will ever go back.

RubeRad

Ditto.

What I liked about being clipped in is for mountain biking, not having to worry about being bounced off my pedals. The downside was, if I lost control on a too-steep uphill, I couldn't always unclip in time to prevent a fall. I've had many more bloody knees than necessary, and now that I'm on platforms (for both of my bikes), I feel I'm better off.

SouthFLpix

GCN did a video where they tested clipless vs platforms:

Video: GCN investigates the real difference between clipless and flat pedals

The platforms ended up being slightly more efficient, if I remember correctly. Yeah, there is pretty much no 'upstroke' benefit. Clipless do have other benefits, such as being easier to use at higher cadences, and being easier to bunny hop with.

baron von trail 

I use MTB style clipless cleats. If set loose enough they are easy to get in and out of, and they also do OK for walking.

Frankenbike77

After reading your post, I decided to take a better look at what the pedals are actually doing for me.
Purely observational, but this is what I noticed:
While the upstroke doesn't appear to create any real power, it does feel as though it assists in reducing force required on the downstroke
Not sure the mechanics, but it does appear to make a marked difference going uphill (my uphill stamina is garbage)

So if the upstroke isn't adding in any real work, is it really just allowing you to return to the downstroke faster than with platforms?
At least with my poor technique, on platforms, there is always a dead spot where my legs appear to being no work at all, as they wait for the cranks to return to the top of the downstroke (even if only for a fraction of a second)

Or, is the benefit that it reduces that positive work on the downstroke, and that's why I only really notice it in situations that require more work (acceleration, going uphill, maintaining speed in the highest gears)
If so, still seems like a more tangible benefit than many other things cyclists worry about (weight obsession)

Or possibly this:

PaulRivers

"unweighting the pedal" is the phrase I've seen used to describe that, and what the last study I browsed through said was the only thing that actually happened on the upstroke.

One of the arguments for clipless is that there are a few niche situations where you actually pull up - sprinting, climbing uphill, though normally there is no actual pulling up.

It's also difficult to test going uphill or sprinting all out indoors on a trainer. One could debate whether that's "proof" that clipless is better, or a convenient excuse to try to justify it having no benefit...well who knows.

I personally agree mostly with the "psychological" thing. It feels faster, but measure it and it's not (at least riding on a trainer simulating riding on the flats where it can easily be measured).
There's also something like which are faster - black bike shorts of red bike shorts? where in reality the red shorts fit better and are stretchier, so someone comes to the conclusion that red is a "faster" color because they are faster in red shorts. One could get faster with clipless because it happens to use the leg a certain way that your leg is more used to, or it positions your foot differently, whereas people who get slower with clipless for similar reason just don't spend a lot of time talking about it.

At a certain point it gets kind of pendantic to argue about it because the only real conclusion (regarding speed) is whether your numbers get faster with clipless or not. One can speculate for a long time, those tend to turn into arguments that go on forever though. :-/

A completely smooth pedal stroke has also not shown itself to be what pro's use either. But for people with really uneven pedal strokes smoothing it out might help.

If I was sprinting all out in races or casual races (A level group rides) mashing the pedals as fast as I could wildly like they do in races - then I'm sure I would prefer clipless. That's what it is good at, solidly keeping your feet connected to your pedals in extreme situations.

But for the kind of riding I do - commuting to work, riding casually for exercise, riding across town, etc, flats with pins does a good job of keeping my feet solidly enough attached to the pedals. I'm not racing anyone in a crazy nearly-out-of-control sprint. And any slight efficiency gains I might or might not be missing out on are more than made up for by the time I'm saving by not changing in out and of bike-specific shoes.

If your speedometer is saying you're going uphill much better with clipless, it's possible. Your problem might also be fixed if you went to a physical therapist and worked on getting your glutes to active. But it might be a lot easier and cheaper to just use clipless.

Frankenbike77

I think this is a perfect explanation. I makes the downstroke slightly lighter - similar to how those weight-assisted pull-up machines only offset your body weight, but don't actively help pull you up.

Agree. You are still pulling up, and you can tell by the extra pressure you feel at the top of your foot, but to your first point, you are just unweighting the pedal a bit more.


Red. Definitely red. Helmets with racing stripes also help.

Well, the numbers are better, but could be entirely psychological because I feel more "elite". Could also be the red tights and stripey helmet

PaulRivers

I've run across another psychologically inspiring technique as well.

Walter S

I can pull up just as good with toe-clips/straps as with clipless. No damage to shoes. No flipping the pedal (my steel clips make the pedal hang nearly vertically, not upside-down. So there's a simple "half-flip" where I push back slightly on the vertical edge of the pedal and slip my foot in). I like being able to ride all day in ordinary shoes. Or actual boots for my cold feet in the winter.

Frankenbike77

Nice! Can I buy angry bears at my local LBS?
Low-tech, effective