joejack951

If we all rode bikes with only the 'necessary' equipment we wouldn't have much to argue about. Well, we probably still would find something. This is the internet.

trailflow1

The newest Shimano brakes 105/Ultegra/DA use a roller cam design of the arms to increase the leverage and force to the rim. Something Campy or Tektro do not have. That's why they get rave reviews. It's not hype.

Seattle Forrest

Of course one bike from any manufacturer isn't representative of the entire market, don't be silly.

I don't care about the entire market, and neither do you. We care about bikes we own, and bikes we might in the future. We also care about how bikes are evolving.

In that sense, Cervelo has proven that from a frameset perspective, there is a weight benefit to disc brakes. We're not talking about the Walmart bikes that outnumber boutique bikes in the world, we're talking about what's possible.

Besides, there are other bikes than the R5 that have no or vanishingly small weight penalty. And there will be more.

f4rrest

Do all teh threads end in disc brakes now?

DrIsotope

Or chain lube. Or tire width. Or road tubeless.

But yeah, mostly disc brakes.

speshelite

You clearly have a strong desire to avoid the facts. OTOH you acknowledge that the average weight penalty is in fact a pound or a bit more. OTO, you still insist on obfuscation, lying to yourself and others that there is a weight benefit. First of all this "benefit" is 20 grams on one model from one manufacturer. Second, this is outweighed, literally and figuratively by the 4/5 of a lb+ weight PENALTY from a disc groupset ALONE. This is not to mention the weight penalty in the wheels.

Sadly, your inability to face facts means you must engage in constant duplicity by referring to a reduction in the weight penalty as a benefit and other such forms of orwellian doublespeak. Yes, a 20 gram reduction in the weight penalty is a tiny reduction in the weight penalty but this is in no way shape or form a "benefit."

I do enjoy your posts however. It's a glimpse into the strange delusions of someone who refuses to face facts at all costs.

PepeM

Anyone cares to share some popcorn?

speshelite

Shimano higher end dual pivots are clearly superior in design and function. I suspect they'd be even better still if the manufacturer or end user employed my simple hack. :-)

There's no getting around the fact that a much larger surface area for the pad provides superior braking power.

I suspect that this single hack alone would narrow the gap between rim brakes and hydraulic disc brakes to zero in wet conditions.

joejack951

The larger surface area does nothing for you. Friction force is dependent on the normal force and the coefficient of friction. By sticking with your original caliper and your same hands, you have not altered the normal force in any way. Your rims are presumably smooth yielding a consistent surface with which the brake pad will contact at any given time regardless of pad size so your coefficient of friction is not variable based on pad size. So the only way you are generating more braking power is by changing the coefficient of friction with your new pads. Your new pads would do that regardless of size, however, being larger does mean they'll last longer. But that's it. The standard road size pads in the same compound would give you the same braking power.

This a massive assumption (and in my experience entirely not true) but even if it were, I'd still prefer discs because I would not be losing material off my rims every time I tried to slow down or stop.

speshelite

To put it politely, this ^ is total drivel. I overestimated the size disparity but the linear pull pads are nonetheless much larger (if not 4x the size in total surface area) and generate vastly more stopping power. Try it yourself on your road bike. You'll notice a similar advantage especially if the stock dual pivots are junk like the axis'. Armed with very large linear pull pads stopping power is excellent and very little effort is required at the lever.

1st of all, you don't have any experience with my setup because you haven't swapped out the stock pads on your dual pivots for the dual compound kool stop linear pull pads.

2nd, it's not an assumption it's a hypothesis which could easily be tested. Go take a look at the GCN comparison. Only an idiot thinks a crabon rim is an ideal surface for braking. Common sense dictates that wet braking disparity is significantly reduced, likely halved with alu rims, if not more. Add a larger pad, re: the hack I describe, and that reduces the gap even further, possibly eliminating it altogether.

I dare anyone to conduct a valid comparison. I guarantee no one will do so because the entire cycling industry will look stupid. Even if discs wind up with a small advantage very few riders appreciate an extra lb of weight plus a 10 watt disadvantage due to aero drag.

Discs are a gimmick and a marketing scam. I can see discs being advantageous for riders who a) ride in sludge a large percentage of the time and b) are too lazy to wipe down rims and pads after wet rides. Otherwise, there's precious little to recommend discs for road use.

And there's no reason to avoid wiping down rims and pads after a ride in the rain or mud. After all, you have to clean and oil your chain-what's a couple of extra minutes to wipe down rims and pads?

Let's say you ARE too lazy to wipe down rims and pads. What's the cost of total negligence? A durable entry level wheel costs $60 to $70 at an lbs. Even less online. Let's say you trash 2 wheels a year. That's an investment of $120 a year. Hardly a king's ransom.

How much does an entry level road bike with hydro's cost? $3K or so. It would take TWENTY FIVE YEARS of annual 2 wheel replacements every single year to match the expense of a new bike (after all you can't upgrade the brakes alone). And you wouldn't even be paying up front. You'd pay in tiny installments, and only if you totally neglected any semblance of maintenance whatsoever.

f4rrest

The gauntlet hath been thrown.

speshelite

To summarize briefly, there's no conceivable reason to "upgrade" to hydros. The only reason/s for doing so are to chase a fad or because the industry offers no choice.

In addition to the a) exorbitant cost, b) aero/watts disadvantage, c) impossibility of upgrading the brakes alone, d) lack of any discernible performance advantage, e) weight penalty, there is also the fact that f) disc brakes are inherently and objectively ugly.

What's interesting however is how emotionally traumatized and/or triggered road hydro users are at any hint of a rational, evidence based discussion of the pros and cons of different braking systems.

It's as if you were criticizing an estrogen addled fifteen year old teenaged girl about her choice of makeup.

79pmooney

I get a kick out of all there efforts to increase stopping power. Three of my bikes have more stopping power available than I find good or beneficial for good control, especially when I need to slow down a lot. (Two Shimano dual pivots, not new and Shimano old-school cantilever.) I de-power those brakes with V-brake levers and find I can stop much faster safely and without surprises. (Most of my brakes have various Kool Stop pads of normal road lengths.)

I have found however that some calipers are poor. With levers that work well on other brakes and my hands, I find the old Campy NR brakes poor in the dry, scary bad in the wet. I won't run Weinmann centerpulls or their copies in front, especially on a bike that will see rain. (I put them in back and use Mafac Racers in front.)

The funny one is that the $10 unmatched used (and partially trashed) sidepull calipers I put on my ultra cheap fix gear had, with ordinary Tektro levers, great dry road stopping power!

Ben

WhyFi

This math is hilarious.

BTW, an "entry level" road bike with hydros is not $3k; You can find a number of carbon bikes with hydros in the $2000-2500 range and I would imagine that going with AL would drive the price even lower.

speshelite

That's because you shop at walmart.

Don't forget the kitty litter and adderall!

WhyFi

The guy stumping for $60-70 wheels is telling me that I shop at Walmart?

Okay.

speshelite

Rain water eats through rims like acid. Best to spend as little as possible.

Campag4life

Absolutely correct. Latest Shimano dual pivot are truly fantastic.

Maelochs

Wow ... this thread is rushing sideways at a high rate. Even for a disc-brake thread.

Campag4life

How much do you pity them? Do you give to their charity?

merlinextraligh

Yeah because it's more than a pound.

We've been this over this ad Infinitimum.

If you look at comparable bikes with comparable specs from the same manufacturer, the disc version typically ways more than the caliper version by +/- closer to 2 pounds.

Whether that difference matters, or is offset by an advantage from discs is a different debate.

But it's just not true to contend that there is not a total system weight disadvantage to discs as it currently stands

merlinextraligh

And all this said I personally like my 622 mm discs

Seattle Forrest

Let's fact check this claim.

Cervelo R5 Disc weighs 19 grams less than their R5 Rim, fameset only. Enve SES 3.4s with DT hubs are 50 grams heavier in disc. RS785 is 340 grams heavier in hydraulic disc. Grand total of 370 gram weight penalty.

Is a Cervelo R5 comparable to a Cervelo R5? Yes.

Is 370 grams 2 pounds? No.

andr0id

The extra few grams is not a good reason to select calipers if you need the all weather performance of disc brakes.

Anybody that's stressing about 12oz is way too OCD.

DrIsotope

As a person who owns a bike with good disc brakes as well as a bike with good rim brakes, I can say with authority... they will both stop a bicycle. Discs modulate better, and absolutely do not care about the weather. I can brake every bit as well in pouring rain as I can on a sunny afternoon. Rim brakes are simpler, lighter, and less fussy.

I've said this in other threads, and I think it bears repeating: We can actually exist in a world where we all like different things. Personal preferences exist. Rim brakes are not intrinsically inferior to disc brakes, and vice versa. They both work. They can stop a bicycle.