CliffordK

Something like a "Selfie Stick" would be more durable than a fishing pole, and easily retractable. However, the hinge would still be important.

Nonetheless, I'd go with a pool noodle if I was going to do it.... less chance of damaging or injuring anybody or anything. And, naturally springy, and with a bit more visibility.

CliffordK

Debate for another topic (or a dozen other topics).

Side-by-Side isn't a problem, but most riders I've seen move over when they detect a car behind them.

I don't know your situation, but I start looking for a driveway to dodge into if a car has to follow me for more than 5 or 10 seconds. Or, like you say, if there is a wide shoulder, utilize it, if only to move over to let cars pass, then move back onto cleaner pavement for the ride.

If the shoulder is clean enough, one or both riders can be on the shoulder, still side-by-side, and reducing the amount of road space they're taking, and thus making it easier for cars to get by.

TallTourist

I am a tall skinny bike tourist just like you and I've been hit by cars. I'm also a long-haul trucker so I pretty much spend my whole life traveling down roads in one form or another and have a view from both saddle and driver's seat. I'm currently using Ortlieb's Backroller Plus panniers in the rear with my tent and camping junk strapped on top of the rear rack. It's a wide visible pile of stuff but I've still almost had my left side taken off by a handful of buses in the last several thousand kilometers. It's always when the road is narrow and two vehicles have to pass each other at the same time as they pass me. There really isn't enough room to do this so the guy in the bus or truck or whatever is now forced to very quickly walk the fine line between taking someone's arm off or taking a mirror off and probably losing his job and dignity, neither of these are good. In that situation, do you want to be really wide? My bags are about as wide as your milk carton setup would be and it sucks! Not only does it give less room for people to get by, I can't fit through most doorways or narrow bridges. I am too wide for most two way bike paths so I displace people going in the other direction and I even got a bag ripped right off the rack in Panama when a reflector on a no post snagged it and wouldn't let go.

You have to face the facts that getting hit is a risk we take, most people don't want to hit you and most wish you well, you will probably be fine but at the same time, IMO, you really ought to throw the drivers a bone and help them get past. When I'm driving big trucks for work in the summer I occasionally find myself in the uncomfortable situation of having to pass large vehicles going in the opposite direction at the same time as passing a touring cyclist. This inevitably occurs around blind corners on narrow two lane two-way roads with narrow shoulders so I can't really do much but steer carefully and hope the guy on the bike does the same. I'm very grateful that those cyclists have never had wide panniers like mine.

Regarding those reflective sticks meant to keep traffic far away: it seems like a good idea in theory but what happens when you are passing cyclists on the opposite shoulder the same time as two motor vehicles are passing one another on a two lane road? It happened to me and I almost got hit (on my bicycle) thanks to that guy's "safety device" and he wondered why I didn't wave at him. Probably the best thing you can do is to get a mirror or two and keep a close watch on them. If you foresee a dangerous situation coming, ride off the road or get off your bike and jump over the guard rail if you can, anything! I did that when I was in Colombia and it worked great! It was a bit slow and frustrating sometimes but how many lives do we get?

Also, being overly noticeable can be detrimental too as people tend to steer FOR the thing they are looking at. I'm sure you've read of cases of the most well lit or noticeable person in a highway work zone getting hit.

But basically it all boils down to there are no guarantees in life, we're playing a dangerous game riding bikes on highways and I think by taking up more space than necessary it's more likely to incite rage on behalf of people who just hate cyclists. Usually to those guys I just smile and wave and they instantly stop raging. If your area is really redneck just get a bandana and a redneck t shirt and ride in that, lol

Whatever you do I wish you safe travels in the future

J.Higgins 

I agree with you on ALL points, Cliff, except one... It looks dorky as hell, and if I were a motorist I'd want to run over someone with this attached to their bike!

fietsbob

I made rain covers for front panniers, and a unified single rain cover, for my rack top load and panniers ,
It has a Amish buggy, slow vehicle reflective triangle sewn onto it.. flexible ..Clifford has a rigid one on the back of his kid trailer..

veganbikes

For me I would go with daytime lights if I felt I was less visible. Taking the lane is also quite helpful but I don't see a need to create a really wide profile, it can be dangerous for many including yourself at times. Plus having an extra wide profile will make you less aerodynamic and slower which doesn't help when being around cars. Not that you should need to go fast but being extra slow because you are trying to take up more room just seems bad.

I would highly recommend going with a dynamo set up with nice bright lights (the TopLight Line brake plus rear with a Lumotec IQ-X or Luxos front from Busch and Müller comes to mind), which you can leave on all day and not every worry about charging. Also having a bluetooth type speaker (like boombotix) and playing music can help. People are probably less likely to hit you if you are not just a visual but an audible presence and music generally can soothe people. I listen to a lot of different genres of music so frequently especially
"in the summer time when the weather is hot" I get compliments for the music I am playing.

Leebo

You mean like cars? For me, pedaling in MA, it is sometimes safer for me to take the lane as needed, and is legal to do so. Might want to start your own thread in A&S.

HobbesOnTour

Agreed, the picture on their website is very poor. I know mine is quite visible and I've seen pictures of at least one with silver foil strips draped over it. I originally found out about it on CrazyGuyOnABike. Maybe check over there.
I've dug up one of mine from last year. The Distanciador is hardly extended.


Like I said, what seemed to me to be an "extreme" diagnosis was dealt with relatively simply & quickly - 2 sessions.

By practise, all I meant was to practise doing what makes you uncomfortable. If that is taking the lane, take 10 minutes and cycle "in the lane". Build up resilience, hopefully and reduce discomfort. You can also spend a bit of time thinking about how to react to other traffic. It's not a day's touring, it's 10 minutes a few times a week. The fact that you're not thinking about how many hours this is going to go on for means that you've the time before, during and after to think about exactly how you want to do it.
You stated in your OP you wanted advice on taking the lane. My advice is to start slow, a few minutes at a time. Figure out ways to reduce and deal with the retaliation you're expecting.

As for eye contact, I didn't mean that you cycle facing backwards.
For example, I reckon the cyclist seen by TouristInMSN didn't acknowledge him once. Result? One pissed off driver.
In a lot of cases like that, the driver will race past at their first opportunity, perhaps cutting too close to the biker....reinforcing the biker's idea that the driver behind was an a-hole and he was right to take the lane. Rinse & repeat.


To be honest, I'd be afraid that scruffy crates hanging off a bike might create the impression of a vagabond and therefore a less valuable life (Not that I subscribe to that theory).

A disabled sticker, or perhaps a crutch strapped to the rack might be better at creating a psychologically effective deterrent.

I've read that on quiet roads weaving from one side to the other can be effective in being noticed earlier and given a wider berth because the driver has seen for a while that the cyclist is erratic. Of course, some drivers will see that as a challenge!

I've also read that in cyclist v motorist debates (and not just those) the protagonists are dehumanised - driver v biker - the key is to re-establish the humanity in the equation. Hence the eye contact, waves etc.

A lot of the suggestions you've received has been about increasing visibility, but I don't think that's what you're looking for. I think you're looking for something that will stop cars hitting you. Short of a Police escort, I don't know of any such thing.

I'm not sure of your premise that many cyclists have been hit by vehicles. I've never been hit by a vehicle. I have, however, ploughed headlong into one - totally my own fault. I've had a few near misses which could have been much worse if I hadn't followed my road motto: Everybody else is a dumbass - expect them to behave accordingly.

You specifically asked for no comments on other possible drawbacks of your design, but I'm reminded of the old joke of the man stopped trying to board a plane with a bomb. He explained that he was terrified of dying in an exploding plane, so he brought a bomb, because what were the chances of 2 people having a bomb on the same plane.....

You can't prevent someone who wants to pass too close to you, or even hit you, if that's what they want to do. But you can reassess the potential risk and manage it so that it doesn't overpower you.

Alternatively, fly to Northern Spain & cycle there! Quiet roads, excellent, patient drivers. France is good, too! :-)

By the way, what's the scary thought of HobbesOn Tour?

Frank

saddlesores

if you wanna be seen, you need some movement.
get yourself a couple construction warning flags.
bright neon on a stick, mounted to your rack,
flapping in the breeze above your left bag.

Happy Feet

Like those flags there are bicycle specific ones often used for trailers and such. I would mount one sideways if I were worried, but only a foot or so out. Having a pool noodle sticking 3' out from your bike looks like one is looking for drama and that's probably what one would get.

Having two rigid crates would not reduce your chance of being clipped. It would just extend the clippable surface outward. IMO, better to have vision and be visible with mirror, lights and reflective clothing and to ride in a businesslike but courteous manner.

Here's that flag on a pic from the 80's when style mattered

raywood

I haven’t yet hit ten posts, so I’ll have to chew up some digital real estate, here, with a few posts not containing links.

HobbesOnTour -- I do appreciate the therapy suggestion. I am (or was; I let my license lapse) a licensed mental health practitioner. Possibly quality levels vary more among American practitioners than among those in the Netherlands. Probably prices are better there. I wouldn't advise an impecunious Texan to start spending money on therapy, with expectations of good outcomes in two sessions. Also, I wouldn't recommend therapy where the problem is a matter of reality as distinct from the person’s perceptions. As others have noted here, biking is intrinsically dangerous -- especially in the U.S., and *especially* in Texas. It does not presently appear that I just need to learn to be more comfortable with roads here, except possibly in the sense of being more prepared to meet my end at any moment. Rather, the more classically Texan solution would be to buy a gun ... kidding, but you get the idea. The suggestion of acknowledging an impatiently following driver is good, but then I’ve done that and had the driver pull ahead of me, stop his vehicle, get out, and approach me with the apparent intention of beating me. (What was I saying about buying a gun?) He saw me pull out my voice recorder -- I was getting his license number -- and apparently thought it was a cellphone and I was taking and sharing pictures of him. He reversed course, got back in his vehicle, and drove away. That was in Ann Arbor, one of the most liberal cities in the nation. Still, yes, acknowledgment and response is generally the courteous thing.

raywood

HobbesOnTour -- Scruffy crates & vagabond -- point well taken. Shane the crazy bicyclist, encountered in rural Kansas, was pulling a massive trailer, complete with dog, very vagabondish, and was getting free tents, flirts, invitations to dinner, even some coverage by local TV. But then, I don't have Shane’s looks or, I suppose, his ultimately harmless if not entirely baffled air. By now, Shane probably has a free apartment and a woman. If I’d tried with his trailer, I’d be in a hospital somewhere. I’ve been hit three times, once deliberately, and have had my share of close scrapes with big trucks and others. Again, probably a difference between the U.S. and the Netherlands. I met a woman who’d been hit 12 times, including one that pinned her and her bike under the front end of a car. I ask distance cyclists whether they’ve been hit. It seems many have. Dehumanized: maybe. Clearly the bicyclist is vulnerable, but then so is a cockroach.

raywood

Finally! Ten posts. I can post links. The forum limits daily posts, so here we go with another omnibus reply.

Leebo -- yes, I think the daytime lights are shaping up as part of the plan.

mm718, NoControl, CliffordK -- maybe a fiberglass rod (e.g., as you say, an old fishing pole) (flexible; cheap at eBay) with a reflector, ribbons, and/or tinsel. Or maybe driveway reflector sticks. As long as it wasn't so flexible, with the reflector as a sail, that it would bend with the wind. Pool noodle photo -- wow, major leftwards extension. But, yes, visible.

NoControl -- police used to make road safety presentations in grade schools in Indiana too. Maybe they still do. Not sure. And, yeah, I did think that pool noodle was sticking out a bit too far in that photo. It’s sobering, though, to observe how wide the three-foot requirement is, for those jurisdictions whose laws require that space. The calibrated noodle, displaying that distance, could make sense in such a jurisdiction, assuming drivers have been educated in that legal requirement.

Doug64 & Bradtx -- I think red flashing is required at night in some cities. FWIW, I’ve been using two flashing blue M-Wave LED taillights at night -- very visible. Not sure if they’re legal for rear lights in all jurisdictions, though.

mtnbud -- funny you should ask. Yes, as a matter of fact, I have considered a full kitty rig. I hadn’t, however, seriously considered high-lumen rear taillights, as in, the kind that would require a dynamo or battery pack. It is something to consider. The kitty buckets have the advantage of a lower center of gravity, but the disadvantages of (a) hitting my heels unless I fashion (or buy) a rear rack to move them further back, which I will probably want to do anyway (see other post, linked below), and (b) not being as high, for purposes of driver visibility. But they may be enough. I’ve seen other remarks agreeing with yours: the kitty panniers do seem to buy a little more space from drivers.

BBassett -- the camera is a worthy suggestion. I have seen comments that a visible camera could make some drivers resentful, but also (I think) an actual study where it seemed that the sight of the camera put drivers on their best behavior. A problem is that, from what I’ve seen so far, cameras are not yet reliable for capturing license plate numbers, especially at night. (I find the wee hours safer in terms of few drivers, yet perversely unsafe, even on empty roads with spare lanes, when one encounters the occasional very late-night partyer.) Limited browsing suggests that, for purposes of prosecution or civil litigation, the ideal solution would be three cameras: front, back, and left side.

DropBarFan -- in Miami, I might have to *lower* the crates to put them at Lamborghini eye level. EVT Safe Zone mirror -- wow, that is really a mirror. But $40 at Amazon. I have a little one, clips on the eyeglass temple, gives me a general sense of the rear road; I just find that when my eyes are over there, I’m not processing the road ahead -- because of me, not the mirror.

TallTourist -- wow. Sobering. OK, the scenario is, you’re a wide rider and maybe that works for the drivers who see you and don't want to hit you, and you’re also a courteous rider and (per CliffordK) you pull off to let drivers past -- except (I assume) where there are no driveways or shoulders (e.g., mountain road) or it’s nonstop traffic and you would be waiting forever. I think you’re saying the problem is when a driver comes into a situation where the bicyclist wasn't previously visible and now, at speed, at the last minute, the only option is to try to squeeze by. I’d still say crates (or something equally visible, relatively near eye level) would be the best option, at least to approximately the width of the handlebars (though of course dropbars would be narrower than my flatbar). I guess it’s a choice between inviting lane-sharing when drivers might otherwise be persuaded to swing out and pass wider, versus guaranteeing an impact in that hopefully but not necessarily rare sudden-death scenario. On official bike trails in the suburban and rural U.S. -- I mean, suited for a hybrid, not mountain bike trails -- so far I haven’t seen a situation so narrow that the crates would be a problem for other riders, but the reflective stick surely would be. It’d have to be removable or foldable or something for some situations. The crates *would* be a problem for purposes of squeezing between posts to get onto some such trails. Drivers inadvertently steering toward the thing they are looking at -- yes, I think that’s a potential risk, but I’ll take that over not being really noticed. But you’re right -- biking on roads, especially in the U.S. (at least as compared to Europe), is intrinsically dangerous. The bandana is not a bad idea; see also the earlier mention of a Budweiser flag.

Veganbikes -- it seems the B&M TOPLIGHT LED LINE Brake Plus rear light is unavailable at Amazon but available elsewhere for $25+. Except for possible mounting hassles, Momentum Mag likes dynamo lights. One obvious advantage is, no need to recharge batteries or risk they’ll run down. Thanks -- it’s a suggestion worth considering. I like the boombox mental image, but probably won’t add that -- the drivers I’m worried about are traveling faster than the speed of sound.

HobbesOnTour -- Re structure/design issues: as I say, see my separate post here on BikeForums, Thru Axle for Heavy Cargo Rear Rack? The forum now allows me to post links, so this time I can do that. Spain, France -- good suggestions. I think I’ll probably do as well in Missouri (especially on the Katy Trail -- no cars!) and on back roads in Kansas and elsewhere in the Midwest. Or at least I have so far. Avoiding cities seems like a good first step; hence the thought of using the bus to cross big cities. Hobbes on Tour: I was just visualizing a certain kind of bicyclist: solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

Saddlesores -- flags, yes. If not Budweiser, some say you can’t go wrong with Old Glory, especially perhaps among those most inclined to resent sharing the American roads with bikers.

Happy Feet -- cool look. Makes me wanna ride. Wide handlebars! Good flag.

HobbesOnTour

Here's the inspiration for my monniker.

I sure hope I'm not seen as solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short!

Best of luck!

Frank

KathyKHS

I have had cars give me more space with my kitty litter panniers. I think the idea is sound.

Tourist in MSN

I recently posted a couple photos on a different thread and decided that they were pertinent here too.

If you are thinking about visibility, I think your goal should be to figure out the best way to be seen on a day like in the next two photos. I took these photos on a foggy morning very soon after we pulled out of the campsite at sunrise, the second photo was taken 12 minutes after the first one, that shows how fast visibility was improving as the sun rose. The photos show my touring buddy in front of me.

It would have been very easy for a car to come roaring up on us without seeing us until it was too late. There was no shoulder so we were on the edge of the traffic lane. At times I had trouble seeing my touring buddy even when he was within a couple hundred feet of me because of the fog. And to make matters worse, we were riding towards the sun so any drivers would have their vision somewhat obscured because of that.

The only good thing to say about riding that morning was that there was almost no traffic at all, so the danger was pretty minimal. This was in Everglades National Park. But it also meant that we saw alligators on the side of the road a couple of times, with the poor visibility those sightings were rather sudden too. But because it was in a national park, we did not have a bunch of commuters racing to get to work. If it was a busier road, we would have waited a bit for conditions to improve.

I have two taillights when touring, often use one but almost never use both simultaneously, usually the second one is to have a spare. But that morning I had both my taillights in flash mode. I do not remember if my taillights are half watt or one watt. There are better ones out there but the ones I have are better than the average. And I frequently change out the batteries to make sure that they are as bright as they can be instead of waiting for the batteries to get so low that they no longer function.

Anybody can be seen on a beautiful sunny day, but it is those times when visibility is poor when you really have to work at being seen.

veganbikes

So don't buy it at Amazon! Jeff Bezos doesn't need any more money, he is good on that! If you have to buy online check some of the German retail outlets. It can be harder to find in the U.S. because we aren't as hip to dynamos.
If you have a rack you shouldn't have major mounting problems as they make two different versions to fit different racks or you can find various rack mounting solutions out there or if adventurous just bend some metal and drill holes in it as far apart as needed.

Any shop with a QBP account can get Supernova lights but you have to use their stuff as a combo if you want the stand light as the front contains it rather than both. Also any shop with an account with Merry Sales Co. can get you some of the B+M lights.

The Boombotix is quite small as are most other bluetooth type speakers. We aren't talking 80s era boombox that you hold on your shoulder. JBL makes a cylinder speaker that my shopmates use in the shop and it works quite well but I don't know much about the IPX ratings on it so I cannot speak to outdoor worthiness but I assume they are somewhat water resistant?

fantom1 

I think there are really two issues at play here that cause bicyclists to get hit.

1) Animosity.
2) They simply weren't seen.

For 1, I'm not sure exactly why, but the buttheads of the world seem to reserve their hate for cyclists to the racing crowd. While I have encountered jerks on a road bike, I haven't on a loaded touring bike. This maybe luck I guess, but I imagine a lot of other people notice the same. So for touring, panniers is probably enough.

For 2, I do not think it is a question of width. Its a question of visibility. A few lights placed on both sides of the bike will make you really visible. If someone is going to push it, they are going to do it no matter the width or vehicle. People die trying to pass slow moving cars all the time. The only thing you can do is make sure you are visible imo.

Honestly, if you really are on a tight road and somebody is getting antsy behind you, I just pull over and stop and wave them by. In my younger years no, but anymore a minute or two won't kill me and might save me.

J.Higgins 

This is the best answer I've seen in this thread. Taking the high road is always a good idea. I practice the very same thing when the roads are bad here from snow. If the roads are really snowy and conditions are poor, there is always some joker who wants to ride my rear bumper. Sometimes I cant even see their headlights, they are so close. So what I do is to pull over and let them pass. Only takes a sec and my karma is intact.

bikenh

One thing it doesn't seem anyone ever wants to mention much about is respect. Yes, it should come from sides of the equation, the cyclist staying over out of the way of the traffic(as much as possible) and for the guys in automobiles to have the patient and realize both of you have the right to use the roadways across the country. Be courteous to the driver and I rarely have ever had trouble with them in over 100,000 miles of biking. The first accident was blatantly my fault and I accepted the responsibility for it right at the scene. The second one was a very unusual scenario as there is a stop light with the right lane setup like an on/off ramp. You're not suppose to make the turn at the stoplight itself but are suppose to make the turn on the 'off-ramp' configuration. I pulled up to the stop light, right beside a minivan, figuring they were going straight through. I hadn't unclipped and knew I wouldn't need to since I knew the stoplight quite well. The light turned green and I started to go when the minivan turned right in front of me and cut me off. Both of us were only doing 1-2 mph at the time so not even a scratch. When I looked inside of the minivan and saw it was 4 senior citizens I pretty knew it was only one of two things that had occured(too busy talking and not busy enough to notice the right turnoff or they changed their mind and decided they could get away with just turning at the light. Didn't think a thing about and moved on. Third accident I was cut off by a guy who wasn't thinking carefully enough and turned right in front of me after he had just passed me. If he wouldn't have had a ball hitch on the back of the vehicle I would have never made contact. I still laugh my ass off about that one. I couldn't have gotten taken out by something big, it had to be about the smallest darn thing on an automobile that could have taken me out. Once again, no real damage. The ragg wool pop top mittens I had on weren't damaged. Did have a couple of small tears in the booties but I'm still wearing them almost three years later. I use to only get one season off a pair of botties, this pair has gotten me 2.5 full winter and should make me through the rest of this winter....can't complain.

I ride i such a way as to 'more or less' make my invisible to the cars. I want to blend in but not stick out and cause them to be held up by me. I don't want to piss off the drivers...that's what makes them want to pot shot you to get you out of their way. When I'm riding around home(non snow months), on the touring bike I always use the inner kitty liter bucket and leave the traffic side free. I want to minimize my presence on the road and keep the drivers happy. Generally when I have trouble its with commercial drivers and not the regular guys on the road. Here in NH we have the 3-5 foot rule for passing cyclist, 3/30 mph, 4/40mph, 5/50mph. The ones that least obey are school bus drivers, semi truck drivers, guys with business names on their vehicle. Private travelers rarely fail to give me the required distance for passing. If I have trouble its generally the guys come from the opposite direction that want to pass the guy in front of them and turn a two lane road into a three lane road. Happens fairly frequently. Most but not all places up here have wider shoulders to make it safer when this occurs.

I remember the bike trip back in 2015, heading west from the state house in Tallahassee and seeing the sign that said bicyclist may use the full lane. I continued to see those signs off and on generally around decent sized cities all the way across the Gulf Coast and on up to the Twin Cities, MN. Never saw one of those signs again until last summer on a dya trip down to Greenfield, MA. As I was heading back home come up Route 5 just heading north from the center of town I saw a couple more of the signs which really caught my eye as I hadn't seen anything anywhere around this neck of woods that allowed bikers to use the full lane.

One ruling(Constitutional, upheld by the Supreme Court) that you need to stop and think about and remember. Article 4, Section 3, Clause 2(I believe I have the correct code in the US Constitution). If a state, any state passes a law and has it on the books in that state...the law is legal in all states. All states muse uphold that law even though it isn't on the books in the state you might be in. For example, Idaho Stop(Pause) Law. Gives cyclists the right to turn all stop signs into yeild signs. You don't have to put a foot down at any stop sign in Idaho, or any state in the country for that matter. The law goes o to say that a cyclist only has to yield before making a right hand turn at a stop light. When it comes to going through a stop light all the cyclist must do is come to a simple stop and then once traffic clears the cyclist can run the stop light even though it is red. Those laws apply in all states because they apply in Idaho. Go read Article 4, Section 3, Clause 2 and you will see what I'm talking about. I know in some parts of the country(SW side of Boulder, CO the sheriff department use to or still does lay for cyclist running stop lights...they can't do that legally or lawfully...yes there is a difference between something being legal and something being lawful)...legal is by state statute code, while lawful is by Constitutional law.

The biggest thing you can do when approaching riding on the road is to ride with respect, not only for yourself but for all users of the road.

bikenh

I will admit I just watch the video last night, after posting above. I like the idea, quite an intriguing idea that shouldn't be that hard to do as an at home project. I know someone local that would probably dig that massively since he was the one who pushed the NH Pass Law Signs. I got to send him the link to watch the video. Thanks for the link.

saddlesores

you sure about that? perhaps you've been reading some of that "sovereign citizen" hoohah?
i'm thinking the rulilng and/or clause you're referencing relates to contract law.

irregardless, i really wanna see you refuse to obey dallas traffic regulations 'cause you do it
different in new york city.




The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

Philly Tandem

Looking at the photos of Ortlieb panniers, one thing that never made sense to me is why they put black fabric at the front/back of the panniers, right where I'd want the brightest fabric possible. I have two full front/rear sets of Ortliebs: one yellow and one red. The bright colors are great from the side, but don't do much for visibility from the back, where most hits seem to occur. Even their "high visibility" panniers have black panels in the rear (although they are reflective, so not as bad).

We run a big yellow Ortlieb duffle sideways on the top of the rear rack, which I think helps visibility a lot as it's more at eye level for drivers. Coupled with a bright blinking light (Dinotte in our case) it makes up pretty visible on the road.

CliffordK

I've noticed that. Even their "High Vis" bags are black on back. Now, they may help with side visibility which should help in urban traffic.

Vaude also makes similar bags, and also mostly black on back.

The one exception is that both have an orangeish bag that has a darker red on the back.

They all have a small reflective patch on them, but even that could be larger. My old Burley trailer has a wide white reflective tape across the bottom and seems to be quite visible in the dark with lights.

TallTourist

I thought of this thread as I rode last night, I'm sure glad my bike isn't wider than it is because I'd probably be dead if it were. The idea of being large and visible assumes the best: that people are paying attention and will react to you or be able to react in a way that benefits you both. These days you're lucky if they're not looking at their cell phones etc. Or, as in my case last night, it's just dark, rainy and windy and people can't see or drive in a straight line. In those conditions, I'd say it's best to be able to keep out of the way as much as possible. I'm in Guatemala at the moment and, as the locals are so fond of smashing glass bottles on the shoulder, I try to ride on the highway in the lanes as much as is practical. That said I''ve come to realise the IQ of the average bus driver here is probably not all that high and it's probably in my best interest to keep an eye on the mirror and be ready to turn onto the shoulder if they aren't moving over or can't move over. There were a few times when I was stuck on the highway in the lane with two people driving side by side coming up behind me and I couldn't get off the road, sure glad I didn't have a pool noodle or one of those keep away sticks then! It would have gotten hit for sure and maybe taken me down with it.


An interesting viewpoint


I make a living driving long-haul trucks in Canada and the USA and, as you can imagine, am quite fond of cyclists but there are times when all the best wishes in the world aren't going to avoid a close call:


A few summers ago I was driving through Ontario on the Trans Canada in a tractor-trailer. I'm fully loaded doing the speed limit behind a handful of similar trucks through a section of blind curves with one lane going in each direction and metal crash barriers on both sides very close to the "fog line" on the right hand side of the lane. There's lots of traffic in both directions with heavy trucks tailgating me and people in the opposite direction staying in their lanes with varying degrees of success. All of a sudden I came around a corner and there's a touring cyclist doing an excellent job of riding in the tiny little space afforded to him with his right pannier nearly touching the crash barrier and his left pannier only slightly in the lane. Of course, I moved as far to the left as I could but there was a heavy truck coming in the opposite direction with his trailer looking like it was going to cross the centre line. This all happened within probably a second so I judged that I would have just enough room to pass but I was prepared to go left further if need be which would have caused a collision and I would have been at fault for it. This could very easily have been a fatal collision and it most definitely would have meant I'd lose my job and not be able to get a good job in the industry possibly ever again. I'm not blaming anyone, I'm just mentioning this to illustrate the value of not taking up more space than is necessary. In this section of road, and there are many like it around the world, there just isn't much space. Sometimes there is not enough space and if two vehicles were to need to pass a cyclist at the same time as they passed each other there would be a collision. It's not just us cyclists trying to get from a to b safely and I don't think any of us really want to be the reason an accident occured no matter whose fault it is. And keep in mind I am a well wisher of other cyclists and I was rested, alert and am pretty skilled at driving. Take one or several of those away and the situation could be much worse for many reasons. This situation worked out as well as it could given the circumstances but even still I, and probably everyone else in the vicinity, probably gave that cyclist a few gray hairs. Something to consider.


Fair winds!