livedarklions

That isn't junk science, it's a meta-analysis. It's a methodology that's considered quite sound by people who, y'know, actually know stuff. What's hilarious is you first alleged I was misstating its findings, now you're just saying ignorant things about a widely-used methodology because you don't like what it says. By the way, I found the link because it was a footnote to the link you posted. So basically, you're accusing your own link of promoting junk science.

There's a fundamental problem with your magnesium assertions that make the whole idea quite implausible. Magnesium deficiency is a systemic problem affecting all of the muscles in the body. The kind of cramping we're discussing here is essentially a spot problem--very specific locations on the body for very short durations of time, somewhat random in frequency, but definitely related to exercise of the muscle that's cramping. If it were something like an electrolyte imbalance, why isn't it hitting all of the muscles at the same time? Why aren't these events associated with cardiac events? Why in all the testing they've done on athletes have they found no connection between electrolyte levels and this sort of cramping?


Yes, obviously electrolytes are vital in regulating muscle contraction and relaxation, but so are about a thousand other factors. I could easily just assert it's an oxygen deficiency, or a sugar imbalance, or that the muscle contains too much protein and got too strong. I had a blood clot in my calf many years ago--guess what it felt like? Does it then logically follow that the cramps are caused by transitory interruptions of blood flow? Your intuition and maybe someone else's marketing have led you to believe it has to be electrolytes, and you're just going to shut out any information that says it's not electrolytes. Guess what? It's not electrolytes.

AnthonyG

Yes. Meta analysis IS Junk Science. You heard it here first. If you understood the Scientific Method then you would know why this is true.

More on Magnesium, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4455825/

livedarklions

Your opinion on meta-analysis--utter BS, and I clearly know more about the scientific method than you:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20656933

I notice you didn't go anywhere near my previous reasons why your assertions on magnesium are absurd. No surprise there. You really can't answer.

Nowhere in your latest link is there anything indicating that magnesium deficiency is related to workout-related cramping, and it actually seems to indicate you would otherwise be sick as a dog with loss of appetite, nausea, vomiting, fatigue and weakness BEFORE this deficiency manifested as cramping (which it well may never do, and there's no reason to assume it would look like a charley horse). Of course, by the time you were experiencing this as cramping, you might be a bit distracted from the cramping by the seizures and coronary symptoms you'd also likely be experiencing.

Eat some pumpkin seeds and relax. You're in way over your head.

curbtender

I thought they cancelled Charley horse years ago...

livedarklions

Replaced it with The Pickle Juice Kids as I recall.

AnthonyG

You have NO idea.

The Science behind magnesium deficiency causing muscles cramps is phenomenally simple. Muscles use calcium to contract and magnesium to relax.
Its called cause and effect and its solid Science.

You on the other hand are just making up ridiculous nonsense all the while equating meta analysis with real Science.

The VERY first question I wanted to ask of the trial that suggested that magnesium supplements didn't work was just WHICH magnesium suppliment did they test. If they used magnesium oxide well then of course it doesn't work. Was there an answer to my basic and important question?
No there wasn't.
If I can't even get a simple answer like that then of course its junk Science.

EDIT: Also, your assertion that a spot problem for one muscle rules out a deficiency as the cause is just nonsense. Its a spot deficiency. How can that be so difficult to understand. A hard working muscle has used up its local resources.

livedarklions

show me anything anywhere where anyone has shown a connection between magnesium and workout related cramping. Sodium is related to muscles, calcium is related to muscles, oxygen is related to muscles. What makes you think it's magnesium deficiency causing cramping when there's so many other things that could be out of balance? Constantly repeating yourself isn't proving a thing. You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

You've posted a bunch of stuff that literally has nothing to do with a very specific question. It's absurd and I won't be wasting my time on you unless you actually manage to come up with anything relevant.

And again, if you were right, why is usually only one muscle cramping, and why is the cramp going away so fast? It should be a systemic problem cramping up a bunch of muscles at once. You're just wrong. Give it up.

AnthonyG

You can't prove your point in Science using a double negative. If you knew Science then you would know this and not even try.
Are Sodium and Potassium involved too? Yes they are.

I made a specific request/complaint about your reference. WHICH magnesium supplement was tested. Do you have an answer?

livedarklions

Burden shifting is a cute ploy, and a clear admission you got nothing.

AnthonyG

Right back at you.
Do you understand that this is precisely what I was accusing you of and if your the one claiming that Science proves your case then its absolutely your responsibility to place your Science on the table.

You can't use a double negative in Science.
Your claim that a spot muscle cramp and not a whole body muscle cramp disproves that a magnesium deficiency is the cause is nonsense.

DrIsotope

Alright fellas, let's try to bring it down a few notches. Neither of you are gonna convince the other, so maybe you should both drop it, eh?

Note: this is an official suggestion.

terrymorse 

The exception being sodium. Getting adequate sodium on a hot day may make the difference between finishing strong and ending up in the hospital.

Been there. Done that. Have the hospital bill.

livedarklions

Totally true, hyponatremia can kill you, but there's still scamming going on with that. A lot of these supplements are really just very expensive table salt.

If you don't mind me asking, was it a matter of not eating enough salt or of drinking too much water?

terrymorse 

It was not enough salt. This was Climb to Kaiser, during one of those record-breaking heat waves. I was taking Endurolytes and filling my bottle with Gatorade at the feed stations, drinking about 1 bottle per hour.

It wasn't enough. I started to fade around mile 140, limped into the finish, then collapsed. I ended up at the Clovis ER, which was overloaded from all the regular folk overcome by the heat.

Apparently, spirited riding in extreme heat can deplete your salt stores in a few hours. This was about 9 hours of race pace riding in ludicrous temperatures.

Sy Reene

I'm not following this reasoning. If the recommended daily intake is somewhere 2000-3500 mg (various websites have differing views), and most non-supplement-taking people have only 2-3 meals a day, then that implies somewhere in the range of a single dose of 600-800mg shouldn't be dangerous.

livedarklions

It's the form that causes the problem. Taking purified potassium is not the same thing as getting it in food. Basically, what would likely be absorbed rather slowly in food all hits your body at once. If you have any undetected kidney or cardiac issues (not unusual, btw) big doses of potassium could be playing with fire, and it also could be a problem if you have high potassium levels already, which is very typical of people working out.

JanMM

Good that the ER helped you to recover. Ludicrous Temperatures are even more dangerous than Crazy Hot!

Getting back to the topic of charlie horses - my leg muscle cramping generally occurs early in the cycling season and seems related to exceeding my fitness levels. Not a frequent experience for me and roughly split between on-bike cramping and middle-of-the-night cramping. Can't recall any in the last month or so. Knock on wooden head.