slowandsteady

You should be stepping off the bike when you come to a stop. If you can reach the ground from the saddle at all, your saddle is too low.

I have this installed on my bike which raises my handlebars a good 2-3 inches. Makes a huge difference in comfort. It also effectively brings the handlebars rearward since the angle of the head tube angles back. The higher the bars go, the further back they come. Do not move your seat forward to compensate for too long of a reach. It will only hurt your knees and actually make it hurt your back worse. Slide the saddle back to take pressure off your knees, hands and back.

john423

I just found that in my typical riding position, where I settle in the easiest, there's still a little bit of seat behind me. I wanted to bring the seat up so when I'm in natural riding position, I've got the seat firmly under me to keep from having taint problems. Seat comfort seems to have gotten easier with each move, and the moves have been really small each time (mantra of me doing anything to any bike - move slowly, in small steps).

So what's the name of the part pictured above? It'd be good to know for when I go talk to the bike repair guy about getting the handlebars closer to me. I think the big problem is I'm a tall guy with not much reach, so I'm having a hard time not locking my elbows at the handlebars.

Maybe I should be bent over a LOT more than I am, but it just feels unnatural to me. I should be able to bend, what, about 10 or 15 degrees (pardon me, engineers) and have it taken care of. I shouldn't have to really arch my back. This is where I need to do some riding with experienced riders, but I haven't been up to keeping up with the local road club yet. If the weather's good enough for them to go on another group ride this weekend, I may try it.

On a semi-related tangent, I've been seriously thinking about how much my area needs a bicycle RIDING club. There's a group dedicated to road racing/cyclocross and there's a group dedicated to mountain biking, but it'd be nice to have a group that meets just to go on rides together and not worry about pace or what kind of bike each other has, where everyone would feel welcome no matter age/experience level and it would be OK if you didn't have a jersey or spandex shorts, it would be OK if you wore whatever the heck you wanted. Kind of a catch-all club. I don't know if bigger cities have those or not.

Neil_B

John423, photos of you on the bike would help a LOT.

slowandsteady

Stem riser. Dimension is the brand. Should be about 20 bucks. Makes a world of difference.

john423

Duly noted, I'll see what I can do.

Neil_B

In the meantime, compare me to you......

Surly Long Haul Trucker with a stem riser:





Same rider, same size and make of bike, without a stem riser:

slowandsteady

Don't give up just yet. Adjust your fit. It makes a huge difference. Also, feel free to switch back to regular pedals until you get more comfortable on the bike. I remember the first month or so on my road bike. Wow, was it a strange feeling compared to the MTB. It did take some getting used to. Now I almost never ride the MTB despite riding it for nearly 15 years.

Once you adjust the fit, find a good saddle, and get used to traffic, it is a really, really fun way of exercising and exploring the area.

I have a Brooks B72 and it is insanely comfortable. The stock saddle was a torture device. I raised my bars nearly 3 inches with the stem riser and haven't looked back. It is a cheap and easy way to get a more upright and relaxed geometry without spending a ton of money on a new bike.

slowandsteady

My friend uses these instead of clipless. They give you a nice foot hold on the pedals but are much easier to get out of for an inexperience clipless user.

Again, just 20 bucks. They are called power grips. I have use them myself and they are easy to use and give you a pretty darn good grip on the pedals. I still love my clipless SPD pedals, but I think the power grips are a good alternative.

john423

The Historian: Thanks for the pictures. I'm nowhere near as upright as you, even in the pictures before the handlebar riser. I think our bikes are different in that mine's pretty much a straight racer and yours is a tourer. That does make me feel better about buying a touring bike with the typical curved handlebars like a Long-Haul Trucker or a Salsa Casseroll or a Masi Speciale Randonneur.

A new saddle is on my short list after I figure out whether or not I'm keeping the bike. Right now I'm leaning more toward keep, but I'm still not sure.

Bookmarked. I think I'll be giving these a try - these really seem like best of both worlds.

Thanks for all your help guys, this is the single bestest place on the whole darn Internet.

slowandsteady

I have a racing geometry bike with stem riser and am nearly as upright as Historian.

Neil_B

Now THAT demands a photo! :-)

Austinnh

I think that you're on the right track with something like the LHT etc.. The bike you have now is designed for racing, not long rides in comfort on varied surfaces. You can raise the handlebars, change the seat, change the pedals, put on wider tires (although not much wider), but you'll still be too high off the ground, have the same twitchy handling, and be limited to dry pavement because you can't fit big enough tires. The geometry has steep angles, high bottom bracket, and short chainstays that favor a more forward position and twitchy handling, and you can't change that.

Or you can go get a LHT (or similar). All the above problems are then solved. It will be comfortable, stable, and off-road capable. You can ride your bike in comfort and fun. You won't win any races, but so what?

The most natural way to raise the handlebars relative to the seat is to get a big frame. This will also typically give you more wheelbase and therefore more stability/less twitchyness. Problem is it might get the handlebars too far away making you feel stretched out. My suggestion is to try a variety of sizes (be sure to have the seat hight the same on each one). My guess is you will find the largest LHT (62cm) most comfortable. Won't know until you try. My suggestion is to try an LHT (without clips or straps) before you spend another dime on your current bike. I think you will be amazed at how much more comfortable it is.

You say you do have short arms, which does present a fitting problem. I understand that drop bars on too short a stem may feel twitchy, that's bad. This can be solved by using a huge rise on a smaller frame. But this gives a shorter wheelbase, potentially also causing a twitchy feeling. The best solution may be a style of handlebar other than drop.

From the standpoint of health/exercise, the most important thing is that you ride more, not that you go 22 mph instead of 20. And you'll ride more if your bike is comfortable, both psychologically and physically.

Lots of people (especially bike salesmen) will tell you that you just have to get used to it. They're probably right to a certain extent. People can get used to all sorts of discomfort. But that doesn't mean we should subject ourselves to discomfort. Biking doesn't have to be a discipline sport, it can be something you do because you want to. It will be, if you get a bike that fits you right and is comfortable and fun.

qmsdc15

Honestly, if you don't like your drop bar racing bike, a drop bar touring bike isn't going to be that much different. Spending a lot of cash on a Salsa or Surly because it has an inch longer wheelbase and/or head tube and seat tube angles a degree less steep doesn't make sense. Most bikes have pretty similar geometries, the differences are subtle.

Get a hybrid and enjoy the ride.

Austinnh

I disagree with this strongly, based on my experience of riding both types of bicycles, and I think most people who have ridden both types of bicycles will second this. Between the slack angles, low bottom bracket, and long chainstays, an LHT feels tremendously different, an long as you get a big enough size. Some of this is probably also due to the larger tires that wouldn't fit on a road bike. Even the difference between an LHT and a Cross-Check or Pacer is immediately noticeable (to me). The LHT is much more stable, especially under emergency breaking, when stability, or lack of it, starts screaming at you.

I tried flipping the stem on my road bike. It did get me in a more upright position. But due to the short chainstays, my weight was too far biased to the rear wheel. This made the front end feel light and wobbly, and the rear end feel overstressed, especially over bumps. I flipped the stem back down and everything felt balanced out again. It handled much better especially around turns and over bumps.

I'm guessing an overly agressive position would feel awkard on an LHT, but I've never tried it.

We can go back and forth about it. But John has to find out for himself. If I'm right, he will notice a tremendous difference the first time he rides an LHT, assuming he gets gets on one big enough, which may be more easily said than done if the 62cm is not big enough.

Speaking of size, John, do you know your PBH (Pubic Bone Height), sometimes called inseam? That is useful for determining appropriate size.

eddubal

Another idea and much less expensive would be to get a flat or riser bar to put on your current bike. You would also need new brake levers, and possibly shift levers, but you could turn your bike into a hybrid. Later if you get used to it more, you could change back to the traditional drop bars. Nothing about road bike geometry says you MUST use drop bars. Flat or riser bars with a stem extension and riser stem might get you in a much more comfortable position. That's what we would recommend with great success when I was working for an LBS.

It's your bike and comfort is king. If you're not comfortable, you won't like it. Like someone else said, change one thing at a time. It sounds though that you need a much more novice bike than what you have. You can turn your bike into this fairly inexpensively. Install platform pedals. Use clips or the Powergrips like slowandsteady recommended. ONce you are comfortable geting in and out of them which should be pretty quick, hit the positioning problem.

Bring your handlebars up alot! Get upright and your back problems will go away. Once you're completely used to it and having fun again, start slowly moving it down until you are in the position that you want to be in. Then again, the most upright position might be that point. Only you will know. An adjustable stem might help you there. At the least check it out.

If you are worried about the tires, get the widest ones that will fit. If nothing else, it'll make you feel better about them.

Make your changes incrementally, and do a ride or two in between each change to see how you like it. Once you get it right, you'll know and have a sense of accomplishment when you find it.

Much luck and hang in there!

john423

I just figured drop bars = back bend, but The Historian's pretty upright on his Surly. Maybe not as upright as I'd like to be, however. Maybe a hybrid would split the difference between comfort and speed.

My biggest problem as it stands is I'm afraid to spend a fortune on a bike I'm not sure I'm ever going to be comfortable on. I like the bike, I wish I could get used to it - shifting's awesome with the 105s and it's fun to go 30 mph downhill even if I'm scared about getting wiped out by a car.

But the back pain gets bad at about the 90-minute mark regardless. I'm hopping into the gym today and I'll finish my weight workout with back extensions, and I'm thinking about asking my weight-training people online about a program designed to strengthen my lower back (and I would reckon, core) so I might be able to beat this.

It's supposed to rain later this morning, but I do want to go out around the neighborhood for a quick ride to see how having the seat moved up feels, then I'm gonna try to talk to the LBS about moving the handlebars up further.

I'm sure this is nothing but learning curve, and I need to make myself get on the dang thing and work through it, even if I don't particularly enjoy it right now. Just because I don't enjoy it now doesn't mean I won't enjoy it later if I just put the time in.

Neil_B

John423 (is that a Biblical handle?),

Back extensions IMO do little or nothing. Try this:

Lay on your back, with your feet elevated on an exercise ball. Now SLOWLY raise your butt off the ground so your body forms a more or less straight line from your feet to your shoulders. You should go up and down without shifting side to side. SLOWLY lower your butt to the mat. Repeat 10 times. If you can't find an exercise ball, you can instead have your knees bent and 'build a bridge' that way.

slowandsteady

Wheelbase has nothing to do with twitchy handling. Fork rake does. Long chainstays will soften a ride slightly. A road bike doesn't have to equal discomfort. You can ride on wet pavement all day long too. You clearly have a bias against road bikes and it is based on falsehoods. I can ride my racing geometry road bike with 23c tires and riser stem for many hours on end with no pain or issues whatsoever. I also have a brooks saddle. If he isn't comfortable with clipless pedals, it has nothing to do with the bike frame. If he has saddle pain, it has nothing to do with the frame geometry. If he feels too hunched over he can get a $20 stem riser.

I had to make a few adjustments to the fit of my road bike and had to ride it a number of miles before I was totally comfortable.

john423

No biblical handle. It's my name and area code.

I don't have an exercise ball (though I do belong to a gym), but I can do those at home. Will try those. Thanks.

I did an hour today before the storm clouds gathered - I'm getting more and more comfortable with the pedals every trip out. I got clipped in real easy every time I stopped. The seat hurts, but here's why - I'm not back enough on it because I'm too far forward on the seat trying to get into a better position on the bike. If I'm back where I need to be, it feels like the handlebars are too far away. I don't think the seat would hurt as bad if I were actually on it like I need to be instead of too far forward.

I think I need that stem riser, provided it's gonna both raise the handlebars and bring them back slightly. I'm close, I can feel it. I know I can't get straight upright on my bike, it's not built to do that. But there's a back angle/bend that's natural, and this isn't it. If I could get at that natural angle, I wouldn't put so much weight on my hands and want to lock my elbows so much to reach where I'm supposed to be on the handlebars.

And there was a time when I had a decent gear going on a straightaway and I was hitting 22-23 mph thinking "heck yeah," so I'm getting there. I was even exceeding the speed limit at one period, still getting passed by antsy drivers. It was awesome.

I really feel closer. Gotta go shake trees about the stem riser.

Austinnh

I'm pretty sure it's common knowlegde that it does, in bicycles, motorcycles, and cars. A bicycle/motorcycle/car with a shorter wheelbase will respond more strongly to small steering inputs, and therefore also more strongly to any unintentional wobbles. This is easy to prove using geometry, in fact.

Never meant to imply otherwise. But there are some characteristics that are unavoidable, and which may not be appropriate for all types of riders and styles of riding.

Well you can, but I think some people would want fenders, which won't fit except with skinnier tires. But yes, I probably shouldn't have said "limited to dry pavement." Too strong. Maybe I should say "biased toward less comfort on surfaces other than dry (and smooth-ish) pavement."

Um. I ride my road bike every day. My drop from seat to bar-top is 9cm. I'm just acknowledging that there is a difference between a road bike and touring/commuting/all 'round bike. And I'm acknowledging the fact that a road bike is not necessarily for everyone. Based on most of what John has said, a touring/commuting/all 'round bike might be more suited to his preferences. And what falsehoods?

Me too, but 28c tires. Some people are comfortable this way, some people aren't. Different people like different riding positions.

I never meant to imply otherwise.

I never meant to imply otherwise. You can get any position on any frame geometry, for the most part. But position is not the only thing that's important.

This is to be expected.

I think we agree, for the most part. (hopefully we also also agree about the relationship between handling and wheelbase). John had mentioned some things that are best solved with a different frame. He said he feels too high off the ground. He said he wants more off-road capability. And I think he said something about stability/twitchy handling but maybe I'm just imagining that. Also, I claim, based on experience and some simple logic about weight distribution, that longer chainstays handle better in an upright position. This is probably more noticeable to me since I often ride in the city where fast-ish turns over bumpy surfaces are frequent. Wouldn't be very apparent going mostly straight on smooth surfaces.

I'm happy to talk more handling and geometry if you want to, but that's not really my point here. And I don't think my views are any different from mainstream. My main point is that John should test ride some different styles of bike and make the decision himself, because no one, not a salesperson, or me, or anyone else, can tell John what feels comfortable. If John test rides a 62cm LHT (preferably also the largest MASI Rando, and Salsa Casserole), and decides he likes the road bike more, he will have followed my advice to the letter. But I will be surprised if he does not find the LHT more comfortable, based on what he has already said.

john423

You're completely right. By fine-tuning my road bike, I'm making the best of a bad situation. I bought the wrong bike, and selling it now would result in a major loss if I could sell it at all.

I would find the LHT more comfortable than my racing road bike, I guarantee it. But I think if I were buying a third bike, or managed to sell the road bike, I'd want something that provided a straight-upright back position. No slight bends. Straight. I'm not sure any of the touring bikes with drop bars can manage that. I'm not sure any hybrids can manage that. It's probably just a comfort-bike thing. I think Schwinn says my commuter is a Bike Path bike. I'd like to have something like that with a steel frame, a padded saddle and better components. I'd like to have one bike I could both commute and ride longish distances (50-100 miles) with, if such a thing exists.

But the road bike's going nowhere, so I'm gonna try to fix it up and make it work, because it may wind up being OK after all.

RJM

My two bikes now are a hybrid with flat handlebars, stock seat, trigger shifters and platform pedals (grip kings) and a touring bike with mustache bars, brooks saddle, downtube shifters and platform pedals. I rode a ton this year. There is no reason why you have to ride a drop barred, brifter shifting, clipless pedal torture machine.

john423

I've gotten kinda used to the pedals at this point. I like them on hills.

Big, huge problem now is the back pain. Beautiful day here, perfect day for riding. I got about 20 minutes in before the back pain started cropping up bad again. Turned the bike around to head back to the car and caught a second wind and was able to ride for 60 before having to give up.

I gotta do three things STAT:

1. talk to someone at the LBS about sacrificing anything for more comfort - this back pain's gotta stop. If it means getting a stem riser, OK. If it means selling the bike and going for something more upright, OK.
2. Work on my core strength. Every day. And my hamstring flexibility.
3. Lose some dang weight. I was going the wrong way BEFORE Thanksgiving, and today's been a joke already. It's about over.

seedsbelize 

You can do it, John. If I can do it, anybody can do it.

john423

Thanks for the encouraging words. How did you improve your core strength? I tried to do a couple of the exercises listed here and was having a tremendously tough time, so my core strength is well beyond horrible. I wonder if it's so bad it can't be improved enough at this point.