Spoonrobot 

You'd lose that bet except in very specific instances. There's more than just pedaling to riding 100 miles fast. I see lots of people make this mistake every year. Fastest century someone's ever ridden is going to require more than just training increments of 1-1.5 hours. No matter how hard.

How many 100 mile rides have you done?

HTupolev

If you're riding at low intensity either way, then adding breaks won't make you stronger. But if the question is thirty miles of aggressive 8-mile "intervals" with regroups, versus thirty miles of steady, things are more complicated.

I've done century rides with no "stamina" issues at times when the other rides I'd been doing were mostly forty miles or less with frequent regroups.

There are good reasons to do long rides while training for a century, such as sorting out fit and nutrition. But from a pure pedaling stamina point of view, you really don't need to ride long rides non-stop in order to ride longer rides non-stop.

memebag

You said people were dumb for not having regroup points. I say they aren't dumb, they're just training to ride without stopping. This isn't my "notion of what builds fitness", it's what I see people do.

And I know I soft pedal. I never said I didn't soft pedal.

TimothyH

The conversation about coasting prompted me to do a 32 mile fixed gear road ride last night. It has been a while since I rode fixed on the road, lots of fun and my legs are sore today. Just wanted to thank you guys for that. I did stop for coffee though.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1835785542

I'm actually thinking about bringing the fixed gear to a group ride again. I did it a few times but all the shifting started to piss me off after a while.


-Tim-

redlude97

I've lost count but probably 40-50 including a couple double century days, only 5 so far this year but my training has been specifically for cyclocross. While there is more to riding a century than just pedalling, most people who measure their training in miles aren't likely doing the specific hard training to really increase their fitness substantially at that higher end. If someone has years and years of built up training of long distance riding, they don't have to build that up to do a century every year. I've with rubiksoval in that training should mostly be solo, and IME doesn't have to be particularly long if you are efficient with it, and know how to address specific physiological adaptions that occur at different intensities.

redlude97

Exactly

rubiksoval

At this point, I'd say you're just saying stuff to be saying it. Everything you've asserted or "seen" or "remembered" has been off-base.

Spoonrobot 

That's what I was thinking. The more expert one is in an endeavor the easier it becomes to forget what a beginner is experiencing. Regardless I think we are discussing two different things as I was taking your assertion as directed at someone who appeared to be a beginner with essentially no long distance base. Now it seems like he might just like arguing and not necessarily here to learn or share opinions.

Carbonfiberboy 

I doesn't apply unless you do it. How about this? Instead of doing "a bunch of 30 mile rides," you go out Tuesday and do 30 miles, including four 10 minute hill repeats on a long hill, going as hard as you can and not blow up in 10 minutes. Rest time is coasting back down for the next one. If you don't have any hills, do the same thing in the drops. 100 cadence, hard effort, 10 minutes, 5 minutes easy pedaling, repeat 4 times.

Then Thursday go out for 25 miles and do speed work: Somewhere convenient on the ride, pedal absolutely as hard as you can on the flat for 30 seconds, in the saddle, starting in a pretty big gear and shifting up as necessary. Then 5 minutes of moderate pedaling. Repeat 6 times.

Then next weekend, do 50 miles at a good pace, preferably in the hills at about 50'/mile climbing. With the group is fine.

Repeat for 3 weeks. You'll notice a difference. Then try something similar on your group rides. The idea is to return to the parking lot unable to dismount the bike. That's how hard you want to go on those 50 mile rides. You don't need instrumentation to do that. Just turn yourself inside out, bits of lung on your shoes, that sort of thing.

Carbonfiberboy 

We had a 2 who used to come out with us in winter on his fixed. Fixed is hard with 22 mph pacelines, but heck, I used to do it SS, not fixed, but it's similar. 35 miles of that is usually enough. That 2 became our local crit champ. It's good training, no doubt about it. I remember one time him coming up to the front to scream at us to slow down! It's only possible to pedal 70 g.i. so fast and I was never strong enough to do 10% grades in your gear.

redlude97

Yea, the person I quoted isn't a beginner, just someone how trains by distance. We've all likely been there at some point in our cycling, but some of us see the light and learn to train smarter. I'm the fastest I've been been at any distance this year and I've done way less long rides

memebag

Hill? What is this "hill" you speak of?

So I haven't seen what I've seen? I don't remember what I remember? Please, enlighten me about my own experience.

Dean V

Personally I know that if I am to ride a century fast I need to do some long rides in the build up.
Some people seem to manage without the long rides, sort of, but I don't think you can "race" for 4 or 5hrs with only 1.5hr max training rides.
Even in the "Time Crunched Cyclist" he concedes that this short intense training is insufficient for 3hr + races.

rubiksoval

You don't understand what you've seen, and your assessment of your experience is inaccurate. In addition, you've attempted to attribute things to what you've seen and experienced that are not correct.

memebag

I have seen riders skip rest stops during group training rides. They believe (and their performance demonstrates) that helps them skip rest stops during long charity rides.

Did I dream that? Are they all dummies? Please, please, please share your wisdom. I will immediately tell them the error of their ways.

asgelle

seypat

One could argue that skipping rest stops could yield an overall better time at said event. You can pee on the bike like a true triathlete does. (at least that is what I have been told) That will save some time. Have enough fuel and water to take you the whole distance. That will net you some time savings.

rubiksoval

You saw them not stop, but your assertion that their performance demonstrates that is wrong.

They're not dummies. They're just ignorant.

Tell them. Explain to them about coasting and soft-pedaling, too.

redlude97

Certainly some long rides would be optimal and a good plan would incorporate both, but if I had to pick between lots of short focused interval based training, and only doing longish rides with no structure and basing my training on skipping rest stops I'd bet I could get more out of someone doing the intervals, even if the plan would seem extreme. Ideal training would be somewhere in the middle with 1 long ride a week with less structure on say a group ride, with many shorter interval days and Z2 rides during the week.

caloso

You'd really have to focus to get it under 10%. I looked at this morning's ride, which was an out and back 2x30' sweet spot ride. By excluding all the data that was not part of the main interval set, it was still 9% Z1. Including all the rest (riding from my house to the start of the workout and then riding to the office after), I'm now up to 30% Z1.

Power data is really eye opening.

asgelle

DrIsotope

Further example, in my case Z1 power is 1-159W. In a three hour solo ride of typical intensity, I might be in that Z1 for as much as 40 minutes. Going down a slight incline, say -0.5%, I'll average ~140W @ 20mph. Z1 power and HR for 10, 15, even 20 minutes, all in one go.

kbarch

Nice. But group rides....?
I did one group ride with friends and one mega event with the fixed gear: never again. The ride with friends wasn't bad - actually, in many ways it was fun - but what I had a hard time with was people in front not maintaining speed up rollers or the way they'd coast prematurely - I'd start creeping up on them and just did NOT want to lose any of that precious momentum by braking in any way. It wasn't so difficult, effort-wise, it just drove me bananas. If it's not too spirited or serious-pace-liney of a ride, I don't mind if a friend brings his fixed gear. I just don't like to ride directly behind him - he likes to skid, and sharply swerve, and it freaks me out.
The mega event was a NYC Century - the distance and elevation were not the challenge - the killer was all the stopping and starting at intersections and such.

Carbonfiberboy 

I gotta say, I've been doing what you recommend for 20+ years and it works like a frigging charm. Took me a couple years to figure that out. That said, the last 2 or 3 weekend rides I'll lead, 3 to 4 weeks before a target endurance ride, will be increasing length group rides in similar terrain to the target ride, then we'll taper. That'll show up any weak spots and maybe repair them. We'll take breaks about every 30 miles on those rides.

"I always say" that if one is in decent riding condition, one can ride a century on any given day, no problem. OTOH, a 10,000' century will demand a little more respect.

OBoile

I remember a study on jogging that said alternating periods of walking and jogging (I don't remember the exact ratios , but it was something like 5 minutes jogging then 1 minute walking) caused just as much fitness gains as jogging the entire time. Based on that (and common sense) I would think that stopping for a couple of minutes every so often to allow people to catch up wouldn't hurt your fitness in any meaningful way.

The only case I can think of where that would be a problem would be with respect to holding your position on the bike. I know that when I ride in the country, away from the stop lights I usually encounter, I find that my back gets tight/sore after a while with no breaks. This only happens on the first couple of rides, then I'm used to it. Having stops, whether to wait for others, or at a traffic light, lets me change my position and give my back a break. If I knew I was going to do a serious long ride (say a fondo are a race) without stops, I'd want to replicate this at least once or twice in training. But these wouldn't need to be fast rides.