Super Record chain wrap
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1/2 as far in 2x the time
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I'd rank the offenses to tradition that I have inflicted on this bike like this:
Not that you asked, but here's my take on your list.
1. Clipless pedals. --- Temporary pass for adding miles.
2. Modern compact handlebars --- They ain't aerobars...
3. Non-coil cable housing at the rear derailleur Bitd common, what one had.
4. Absurdly long valve stems. --- Definitely detracts, visually, but if that's the tube you got, that's the tube you ride.
5. Tall stem. --- Level seat and bars was common, except for actual (or pretend) racers.
6. Triplized crankset --- Umm, Tulio may have created (sanctioned) the little ring and axle, but did Aldo? But as a mere mortal you get a pass, this time.
7. Modern clincher rims, polished silver not dark anodized. --- polished aluminum was always part of the mix, from before the dark anodizing. Clincher? I'm not so sure about. I have some myself...
8. Brake cables too long --- Yeah, THIS.
9. Not period correct bottle cage. --- Earlier isn't it? That's ok.
10. Quick link in the chain. --- Don't ask, don't tell. In this particular case, I think it's ok.
NR rings with inner ring still present? Seriously??? Definitely not raced that way.
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I seem to have lost what little mind I had left before this all started.
I seem to have lost what little mind I had left before this all started.
Last edited by Last ride 76; 07-09-20 at 12:00 PM.
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(Photo from VeloBase.)
I don't know why I keep having this problem with my brake cables. I set them up in the garage and they look OK to me, then I take a picture and it looks like I'm trying to lasso somebody.
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Your low gear from the 32/24 combo is 35 gear inches. A 42/28 combo from a double would have given 39 inches, not too far off.
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For extending a rear derailleur capacity a Wolf Tooth Roadlink is excellent. It lets you use the same derailleur most times.
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Yeah, I spent a couple of hours playing with gear-calculator,com comparing different combinations. 42-28 is what I was using in my previous build. The new configuration extends that a bit (12% lower) and adds an extra option or two in the speed range where I do most of my riding. The whole project is an obvious rebellion against rule 5, but that's the way I roll.
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I've got one of those on my 2013 Kona Jake the Snake, where I'm using a 12-36 cassette with a 46-34 crankset and a Gevenalle BURD rear derailleur.
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The additional link will mean that the chain will hang slack in the small/small combos but, if I understood you in the first place, the purpose of the triple is to get some "bail-out gears" for steeper hills and you won't need to use the ratios that the small/small combinations provide.
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My first post here so I hope I am not stepping on anyone's toes. I agree that OP is going to a lot of expense and trouble to get a gear that is only 10% lower than what is pretty commonly done (42/28) by others. But staying with what the OP is wanting to do, if it were me I would add another link of chain. With that much tension on the chain in the larger rear sprockets, I think you may find that the derailleur is hesitant to upshift out of those gears. At least that was my experience running a short chain like that on a NR derailleur. By the time you've moved the derailleur enough to get off of the larger cog you end up two cogs away, not at the adjacent sprocket.
The additional link will mean that the chain will hang slack in the small/small combos but, if I understood you in the first place, the purpose of the triple is to get some "bail-out gears" for steeper hills and you won't need to use the ratios that the small/small combinations provide.
The additional link will mean that the chain will hang slack in the small/small combos but, if I understood you in the first place, the purpose of the triple is to get some "bail-out gears" for steeper hills and you won't need to use the ratios that the small/small combinations provide.
I'll see how well this works when I put it on the road, but in the stand it feels like all of the gears are basically acceptable.
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Pretty much anything you do to obtain lower gears will violate the racebike aesthetic, but you won't get criticism from me. It would take eternal youth and a full-time program to maintain a level of fitness to push "good looking" gears over hilly terrain. Not to mention that if the aesthetics police get into my garage, I've got a much bigger problems than you do.
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@daka I agree. Even as a non-vintage aged C&V member, "good looking" gears in, say, Seattle proper are for preening and peacocking. I love the look, but 10-15% grades make a mockery of them, err...me. Best for flat courses and failing to impress the single, and fairer sex. Ask me how I know.
Andy, I think the chain length/wrap is fine so long as the big-big combo is avoided, like it is mostly for us cyclists. Having the extra grace built into the system for brain fart moments is nice, though, I will admit.
A critical questions, perhaps, is this: once mentally signed up for a triple, do you tend to get...opportunistic as to how low a gear you can fit? Sure, pushing a 12-23/12-25 FW or cassette with a 42/52 or 39/53 chainring combo can be tough at times, but do you find yourself content with leaving the 23T or 25T low cog in the rear with the additional 28-36T low ring in front? Or do you find yourself wanting to go for maximum potential and trying to fit a 28-32T max cog in the back? I know we're talking about a 28T presently, but this goes for other builds. I will admit to chasing the 1:1 or better low-combo, even if the reality of a 12-23 or 12-25 rear gearset is ideal for cadence-to-effort fine-tuning. Something that Campagnolo, with their 13-26T 9- and 10-speed cassettes, are really good at. I remember one Port Angeles ride (60 miles total, out to The Hook) with the Miyata 1000 where I really enjoyed being a human CVT with that rear gearset.
Andy, I think the chain length/wrap is fine so long as the big-big combo is avoided, like it is mostly for us cyclists. Having the extra grace built into the system for brain fart moments is nice, though, I will admit.
A critical questions, perhaps, is this: once mentally signed up for a triple, do you tend to get...opportunistic as to how low a gear you can fit? Sure, pushing a 12-23/12-25 FW or cassette with a 42/52 or 39/53 chainring combo can be tough at times, but do you find yourself content with leaving the 23T or 25T low cog in the rear with the additional 28-36T low ring in front? Or do you find yourself wanting to go for maximum potential and trying to fit a 28-32T max cog in the back? I know we're talking about a 28T presently, but this goes for other builds. I will admit to chasing the 1:1 or better low-combo, even if the reality of a 12-23 or 12-25 rear gearset is ideal for cadence-to-effort fine-tuning. Something that Campagnolo, with their 13-26T 9- and 10-speed cassettes, are really good at. I remember one Port Angeles ride (60 miles total, out to The Hook) with the Miyata 1000 where I really enjoyed being a human CVT with that rear gearset.
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So, Andy would have to use a more compact double to realize the same low gear he's getting ... or use a long cage rd, etc. etc.
I just wish this were that easy for me. But that damn 144bcd on every bike...
@Lascauxcaveman, can I get up Hurricane Ridge on a 42/28t low gear using Nuovo Record? What if I switch to a Suntour GT rd and 42/32t? Amphetamines help?
Last edited by SurferRosa; 07-09-20 at 05:59 PM.
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@daka I agree. Even as a non-vintage aged C&V member, "good looking" gears in, say, Seattle proper are for preening and peacocking. I love the look, but 10-15% grades make a mockery of them, err...me. Best for flat courses and failing to impress the single, and fairer sex. Ask me how I know.
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I figure a wide-range FW or cassette is the bike equivalent of compensating...so yeah, compact-range means one is a real Hardman...
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@Lascauxcaveman, can I get up Hurricane Ridge on a 42/28t low gear using Nuovo Record? What if I switch to a Suntour GT rd and 42/32t? Amphetamines help?
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That setup worries me to look at. I was racing and working in bike shops when the Super Record parts first showed up, so I'm very familiar with the limitations of that derailleur.
It's not a Suntour or other slant-parallelogram design. Please forget about the modern mania for making sure that all possible gear combinations are available. With your setup, they can't be. No kidding. Here's why:
The Super Record is just a refined version of the earlier Campagnolo designs, e.g., the Sportsman. Look in the racer's bible from the 1950s and 1960s, the so-called "Cinelli book," to see how such derailleurs were originally intended to be used. My copy includes an illustration of the correct shifting method: there's a four-sprocket straight block with two chainrings, where dotted lines indicate that the inner two sprockets are to be used with the inner (47-tooth) chainring and the outer two with the outer (50-tooth) chainring. Two chainrings, four sprockets, close ratios, four allowable combinations.
If I were to try using a triple crankset with your derailleur and freewheel, I'd train myself to use the inner three sprockets with the small ring, the middle three (including the third largest sprocket, if that's one of the middle three) with the middle chainring, and the outer three (again including the next largest sprocket if appropriate) with the big ring.
I'd also cut the chain such that it sagged in some of the gear combinations that you want to try to salvage, because riding with a sagging chain might be unsightly, but it won't wreck your derailleur. Or the dropout. Or the spokes, should the derailleur do a kamikaze dive into the wheel. That painfully stretched derailleur may work fine on the work stand, but on the road, under load . . . . .
It's not a Suntour or other slant-parallelogram design. Please forget about the modern mania for making sure that all possible gear combinations are available. With your setup, they can't be. No kidding. Here's why:
The Super Record is just a refined version of the earlier Campagnolo designs, e.g., the Sportsman. Look in the racer's bible from the 1950s and 1960s, the so-called "Cinelli book," to see how such derailleurs were originally intended to be used. My copy includes an illustration of the correct shifting method: there's a four-sprocket straight block with two chainrings, where dotted lines indicate that the inner two sprockets are to be used with the inner (47-tooth) chainring and the outer two with the outer (50-tooth) chainring. Two chainrings, four sprockets, close ratios, four allowable combinations.
If I were to try using a triple crankset with your derailleur and freewheel, I'd train myself to use the inner three sprockets with the small ring, the middle three (including the third largest sprocket, if that's one of the middle three) with the middle chainring, and the outer three (again including the next largest sprocket if appropriate) with the big ring.
I'd also cut the chain such that it sagged in some of the gear combinations that you want to try to salvage, because riding with a sagging chain might be unsightly, but it won't wreck your derailleur. Or the dropout. Or the spokes, should the derailleur do a kamikaze dive into the wheel. That painfully stretched derailleur may work fine on the work stand, but on the road, under load . . . . .
Last edited by Trakhak; 07-09-20 at 07:49 PM.
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A critical questions, perhaps, is this: once mentally signed up for a triple, do you tend to get...opportunistic as to how low a gear you can fit? Sure, pushing a 12-23/12-25 FW or cassette with a 42/52 or 39/53 chainring combo can be tough at times, but do you find yourself content with leaving the 23T or 25T low cog in the rear with the additional 28-36T low ring in front? Or do you find yourself wanting to go for maximum potential and trying to fit a 28-32T max cog in the back? I know we're talking about a 28T presently, but this goes for other builds. I will admit to chasing the 1:1 or better low-combo, even if the reality of a 12-23 or 12-25 rear gearset is ideal for cadence-to-effort fine-tuning. Something that Campagnolo, with their 13-26T 9- and 10-speed cassettes, are really good at. I remember one Port Angeles ride (60 miles total, out to The Hook) with the Miyata 1000 where I really enjoyed being a human CVT with that rear gearset.
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@Lascauxcaveman, can I get up Hurricane Ridge on a 42/28t low gear using Nuovo Record? What if I switch to a Suntour GT rd and 42/32t? Amphetamines help?
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If I were to try using a triple crankset with your derailleur and freewheel, I'd train myself to use the inner three sprockets with the small ring, the middle three (including the third largest sprocket, if that's one of the middle three) with the middle chainring, and the outer three (again including the next largest sprocket if appropriate) with the big ring.
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@Lascauxcaveman, can I get up Hurricane Ridge on a 42/28t low gear using Nuovo Record? What if I switch to a Suntour GT rd and 42/32t? Amphetamines help?
I'm with @Andy_K and insist on having a triple for that kind of sustained climbing. I mean, you're talking seventeen straight miles of unrelenting hill. 30 gear inches or less, and I'm going to survive ir, maybe.
BTW, if you're thinking of coming over, let me know. I'd like to do that ride again and it's been awhile. You too, @RiddleOfSteel.
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Following up on this for the morbidly curious....
As seen previously in this thread, I finished putting the bike together with the 49-42-32 crank and the 13-24 casseete last week. On Saturday, I took it out for a test ride. Ironically, the route I was riding was extremely flat. It did have a couple of rolling hills though. RideWithGPS claims one pitch got as steep as 5%. Very short, maybe 100 feet of elevation gain, but enough to feel what the gearing is like. Conclusion: I love it! Really comfortable gearing. Shifting was great. All good.
But I do have a minor glitch in my build to report. Before I took it out, I noticed there was a spot where I felt a bit of drag when rotating the pedals. Not much, just a a little more drag than the rest of the rotation. I had the chain on the middle ring, so it definitely wasn't a chain length issue, so I ignored it. During the ride, I didn't notice at all. Everything felt extremely smooth and efficient. But when I got home I put the bike in the stand to wipe it down, and I felt it again. This time I looked closer to see what was going on. It turned out the inner chainring was very slightly rubbing the chainstay in one spot. Through the rest of the rotation, the small ring was clearing the chainstay by just a hair's width. Oops.
First, let me say I'm very happy to report that even after a 33 mile ride on this, it didn't even scrape this paint down to the primer. That's nothing short of a Festivus miracle, IMO.
I didn't even think this through. I've got another bike with a triplized Campy Strada crankset, so I just used the same bottom bracket length on this one that I had on the first -- UN55 70x122.5. That's the longest Italian threaded square taper I could find, and I didn't even question it. Those of you with deep knowledge of Campy bottom bracket spindle lengths can probably guess what happened here. The crank I triplized before was pre-CPSC, but the one on the Gios was post-CPSC. The post-CPSC crank is designed for a longer spindle -- 115.5 mm asymmetric spindle, offset ~3 mm to the drive side, so I figure equivalent to a 118.5 symmetric spindle; Going to a triple, I want to push the chainline out about 4mm, doubled for the symmetric bottom bracket, so I need about a 126.5 bottom bracket??? I am using a Campy crank on an ISO spindle, so theoretically I should get an extra few mm from that, but I have no idea how many time this crank has been on an off a spindle. tl;dr -- I'm not surprised I had problems.
Solution? There's a guy on eBay (mtbtools) who sells spacers for Italian bottom brackets for a couple of bucks. I knew this because when I built my De Rosa, I discovered that someone had shaved the bottom bracket down to 68mm, so I had to buy a spacer then. I bought another 2mm spacer, put it behind the bottom bracket on the drive side, and Bob's my uncle. I now have daylight between the chainring and the chainstay all the way around.
As Sallah said to Indiana Jones, "I told you it would be alright!"
As seen previously in this thread, I finished putting the bike together with the 49-42-32 crank and the 13-24 casseete last week. On Saturday, I took it out for a test ride. Ironically, the route I was riding was extremely flat. It did have a couple of rolling hills though. RideWithGPS claims one pitch got as steep as 5%. Very short, maybe 100 feet of elevation gain, but enough to feel what the gearing is like. Conclusion: I love it! Really comfortable gearing. Shifting was great. All good.
But I do have a minor glitch in my build to report. Before I took it out, I noticed there was a spot where I felt a bit of drag when rotating the pedals. Not much, just a a little more drag than the rest of the rotation. I had the chain on the middle ring, so it definitely wasn't a chain length issue, so I ignored it. During the ride, I didn't notice at all. Everything felt extremely smooth and efficient. But when I got home I put the bike in the stand to wipe it down, and I felt it again. This time I looked closer to see what was going on. It turned out the inner chainring was very slightly rubbing the chainstay in one spot. Through the rest of the rotation, the small ring was clearing the chainstay by just a hair's width. Oops.
First, let me say I'm very happy to report that even after a 33 mile ride on this, it didn't even scrape this paint down to the primer. That's nothing short of a Festivus miracle, IMO.
I didn't even think this through. I've got another bike with a triplized Campy Strada crankset, so I just used the same bottom bracket length on this one that I had on the first -- UN55 70x122.5. That's the longest Italian threaded square taper I could find, and I didn't even question it. Those of you with deep knowledge of Campy bottom bracket spindle lengths can probably guess what happened here. The crank I triplized before was pre-CPSC, but the one on the Gios was post-CPSC. The post-CPSC crank is designed for a longer spindle -- 115.5 mm asymmetric spindle, offset ~3 mm to the drive side, so I figure equivalent to a 118.5 symmetric spindle; Going to a triple, I want to push the chainline out about 4mm, doubled for the symmetric bottom bracket, so I need about a 126.5 bottom bracket??? I am using a Campy crank on an ISO spindle, so theoretically I should get an extra few mm from that, but I have no idea how many time this crank has been on an off a spindle. tl;dr -- I'm not surprised I had problems.
Solution? There's a guy on eBay (mtbtools) who sells spacers for Italian bottom brackets for a couple of bucks. I knew this because when I built my De Rosa, I discovered that someone had shaved the bottom bracket down to 68mm, so I had to buy a spacer then. I bought another 2mm spacer, put it behind the bottom bracket on the drive side, and Bob's my uncle. I now have daylight between the chainring and the chainstay all the way around.
As Sallah said to Indiana Jones, "I told you it would be alright!"
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