DiabloScott

Where did you get this? If that's actually a conclusion, there are a dozen unstated assumptions on other variables.

Bandera

It's 41-ism presented as "Science", this kind of hogwash is infecting C&V as well along with an appallingly deep and pervasive Dunning-Kruger effect, confirmation bias and a simpering twee revisionism of the sport's past. It's not 1969 anymore, and certainly not as some imagine it was.

-Bandera

SamSpade1941 

Actually Schwinn conducted wind tunnel testing back in the 60’s / 70’s to that effect .

I cant say your observations on the road would count as scientific testing.

News flash Schwalbe last year or year before conducted scientific testing that conclusively proved larger tires are in fact faster than skinner tires . Of course I’m sure there are those here that will argue that point .

Individual perception of what they think is fast or slow doesn’t matter to me . Verifiable results carry some weight .

Whether or not you can leverage those same results on the road with your bike is inconsequential to me. As I said earlier no amount of money spent on a $14,000 bike and gear will enhance my performance enough to make me competitive with anyone who races . I have too many other hurdles to clear first and at my age it is improbable that I clear them all.

texaspandj

Well 30 years ago and more importantly 40 pounds less, I would be trying to get every advantage I could up to and including riding a carbon bike. Generally speaking, carbon bikes are lighter, and more aerodynamic. So I can logically assume they're going to be faster on the flats and faster on the hills. So why wouldn't I want a carbon back then?
Now that I'm older and much heavier, the 2 min advantage I'd have on a 40k time trial is not gonna be enough to negate my 40 pounds over my fighting weight. So I ride what I like aesthetically, Steel.
To be clear, I think carbon is faster (mostly in time trials), and that may be it's only/best selling point. But for me (nowadays) the characteristics of steel are much more suited for my needs. And since I'm not the fit 20 something year old and more a fat 50 something year old, I like the good Cool feelings steel gives me. I also like Not chasing the latest lightest, or feeling I have to buy new, or if I don't buy a 4 grand plus bike Ill be left behind technologically.
I was lucky to have a strong heart, lungs, and mind BITD and Maybe riding steel makes me have an excuse to ride slower today, and as much as I dislike admitting it, that excuse is minuscule compared to the feelings of youth again when passing a Carboned out Carbon in a time trial. So for that egotistical, macho reason, even if I could get back to my 20s year old fitness, I would still ride steel.

And for you old timers out there (you know who you are), keep believing "the way to stay young is to change with the times".

SamSpade1941 

You’re failing in your assumptions of what constitutes scientific testing, it is not the same as you getting on your bike and making observations based on personal perception.

Thats more akin to the Jan Heine method of we rode the bikes and this was our result . This tire size was faster with no lab or wind tunnel testing to back it up , where as Schwalbe spent considerable money verifying that a 700x28 is conclusively faster than a smaller tire. As I said earlier whether you can realize the advantage is another matter entirely .

Your inability to leverage it is inconsequential to me .

seypat

I was talking about his physical stature, position on bike, etc. sense. Not his matchy matchy kit/bike faux pro sense.

DiabloScott

Wind tunnel testing looks at drag, not weight. Drag is sometimes measured in pounds, but it's not weight. It certainly can't account for climbing, which is where the weight really matters, and it generally doesn't consider accelerations.

I think you've been lied to by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

base2 

I always thought Vintage steel was real...aerodynamic 'cause of the smaller tube diameters. There's no way those fantastic plastics aren't like giant parachuting barndoors in comparison. Have you seen 'em? Tubes. Huge...Just sayin'--

SamSpade1941 

I will say it again , your perceptions of performance gains without SCIENTIFIC controls are not valid . Bring me lots of data points and let’s talk again .

Please note I said scientific.. not questionable strava data.

SamSpade1941 

Aero doesn’t necessarily mean lighter either . It is more efficient though all things considered . Still won’t make a meaningful change in my performance when gauged against others who are more fit and skilled than I

even if they’re riding more inefficient bicycles

jetboy 

this is why I don't ride a modern bike... i get tired of being passed by old dudes on steel. or in some cases, a grandma. dang she is fast - and takes the hills like a goat.

SamSpade1941 

If that bothers you then don’t come to the wine country ride . Last year I was passed by an old woman on an ebike retrofitted Bridgestone . She blasted right by me going uphill , she also proceeded to pass the carbon bikes as well.

DiabloScott

My only claim is that your claim is baloney.

That is not science. It is not at all valid for flat rides, and might be a single data point for a particular set of conditions which aren't even stated - it's too vague even to be a thumb rule.

SamSpade1941 

That is not science. It is not at all valid for flat rides, and might be a single data point for a particular set of conditions which aren't even stated - it's too vague even to be a thumb rule.[/QUOTE]


And yet you’ve not given me one solid piece of science . So you fail , I don’t care about your perceptions of what you feel or how fast / slow you think it was on the road . Even if you collected some flawed data with imprecise measurement equipment.

Show me solidly verifiable data collected with proper controls I can get behind .

If you can consistently apply data and technology to a problem the variables become less of an issue when all the other factors are equal .

Back when I worked in the ammunition business all of our published testing was done with a machine rest . To determine the actual accuracy a cartridge was capable of .

An individual opinion based on perception and skill or lack thereof doesn’t change the solid facts derived in the testing lab.

One more time your abilities to leverage that technical advantage is whole different story ...

Which is why I said a great rider that can effectively use his bike will overcome a technical advantage employed by a less experienced and less fit rider

since6

There's another kind of race that steel is sublime for that's the long hours in the saddle ride. It's a ride not about speed but about time, 4 hours, 6 hours, where you reach a point that you forget the bike and just enjoy what you see, hear, smell, feel. Where you turn around at that little coffee place with some benches under the trees and remember all the rides of thirty years you've shared together. Then stretch and head home.

SamSpade1941 

Agreed except for the 30 years part .. haven’t been at it that long yet . Maybe one day if I’m lucky

robertorolfo

Glad somebody noticed that word play!

Yes, those are Zonda aluminum wheels. Not the lowest end of the Campagnolo range, but not far above it. I was also running a 10sp mix of Veloce and Centaur, and really glad that I was because the course was pretty rough and I wouldn't have wanted to be dealing with downtube, indexed or otherwise.

As stated above, the only thing vintage was the frame.

I'm not trying to claim some moral high ground, or really make any sort of statement. This was an entry level, low-level race. As I stated in another thread, this was simply the bike I felt most comfortable on (confidence wise, not cushy comfort), so I said, 'why not try to race it?' I didn't have high expectations, or really any idea what to expect, but in the end I was just really proud of the old girl. Again, this is very low level, but the only thing holding the package back was me, not the frame, and we still had plenty of carbon finishing behind us.

I don't know, it just felt sort of nice to me to know that some craftsman put this frame together 30 years ago and it's still capable of doing its job against more modern, mass produced products. But maybe I'm just sappy and nostalgic for thinking about and caring about stuff like that.

So there is no claim being made here, just a simple observation that while the latest stuff has indeed made "incremental gains," the gap isn't as enormous as some might think (or hope) it is.

See above. This is supposed to be a lighthearted thread to share an experience.

lostarchitect 

Just gonna butt in here and say that neither have you.

It's like you're not reading what they wrote... You're ascribing all kinds of claims to them that they didn't make, and motivations that they haven't expressed.

And you're being rude about it too.

iab

I'm certainly not agreeing with Sam, he has yet to post anything scientific, but if P=F*V, if I have weight loss that doesn't affect my power, doesn't velocity increase?

SamSpade1941 

Not attempting to be rude and I apologize if I was (and I don’t think was, no one was insulted even once) however they digressed after I cited my sources it’s not my job to paste all the data for them. They can go directly to the source and read it .

Everything I said was 100% true . Increases in speed are gained through decreases in weight and technical efficiencies. I also said that those technical advantages can’t make up for rider who is not able to leverage them.

This is starting to remind me caged bearing debate where people insist loose balls are better even after it’s been proven they aren’t .

Here endeth my interest in this discussion at this point.

SamSpade1941 

I cited the sources it’s up to you to go read the results

iab

\


You really should learn the difference between a citation and gibberish.

iab

MIT conducted wind tunnel testing back in the 80s/90s disproving the Schwinn study.

BFisher

"12 pounds of weight loss to gain 1 mph on a bike" - Say, the average human head weighs about 11 pounds...

Saw a bunch of folks on carbon bikes this season. I waved to them. Most waved back. They seemed happy. I was too.

BFisher

Nice Basso, OP.