tiger1964 

One of the FIVE bikes I intend to rebuild/restore this winter. I bought this as a complete bike off eBay in late 1997 or early 1998, I think I got a decent deal because, having a short top tube for the 24” seat tube, no one wanted it — I have short arms and long legs, it fits me fine. I rode it slightly until I retired in 2017, then rode it a lot more. Then, in 2019 picked up a Masi frame here on BF and moved most parts over, living a bare frame. At the last minute, I decided to get this frame powder coated too.

Being a complete “blank slate”, I am considering something new to me… all Japanese components! Right now, I am leaning towards Suntour Cyclone (still not quite ready to embrace Shimano yet), I did not know until recently they offered far more than just derailleurs. Getting that many components might get a bit expensive, including the wheels, so unless I find a “group”, might the best route be to buy an entire bike, take all the components, and then sell a superfluous frame?

Really glad than the Palo Alto bike shop (in California) still has a few sets of original decals left!

non-fixie 

So you like red, eh?

tiger1964 

I should have also mentioned - all of these came back from the powder coater today. Yes, I like bright red (my 6th bike is red, my wife’s too, and we have 2-1/2 red cars); the coater gave me a discount for doing all five bikes, and two forks, all the same color. It will take componentry and decals to give each a distinctive appearance.

tiger1964 

(Photos below)

Well, after buying an entire bike for the parts, it showed up yesterday, and I’ve almost finished harvesting the parts; it took under an hour, and all removed except the headset races/cups in the head tube, which are in there tight enough that for the first time I cannot tap them out and have ordered a formal headset removal tool. So far, I am very happy which what I have purchased - not finding scrapes on parts, even down to the RD which I always seem to see advertised with at least a little road rash. FUJI for sale

Again, this is my first deep dive into owning a lot of Japanese components; The Shimano Lark cast a long shadow and I shudder to think of how many I tried to get working decently in my college days working in a shop in the 1970’s, and I did some criterium races in 1980 where I did well but the Crane rear derailleur kept dropping the chain which is NOT fun during a race. These Suntour Superbe components raise the bar dramatically, and I have not even ridden on them yet; the workmanship seems to scream “Brev Camp”.

A few thoughts:

(a) What’s the max freewheel on the RD, and what’s the max “practical” freewheel? I might actually be riding this bike where there are hills.
(b) A few non-Suntour “Bonuses” if you can all them that: (1) the top tube brake housing clamps won’t be needed on the Palo Alto, and instead of Suntour they are Campy, and I’ll reulitize them elsewhere, (2) the headset is Campy and looks pristine, where I was thinking I’d splurge on a Velo Orange sealed bearing one, but I likely will use this instead (are there Suntour headsets?)
(c) The brakes look exquisite. Interestingly, I see a lot of toe-in already, maybe from the factory or a previous owner? And I recall a topic on replacement hoods, for which I have none. Will any hoods that fit Campy fit Superbe? Best source? Something tells me to invest in Kool-Stops for all five of my purchases, wish I could buy them in bulk!
(d) Were there Suntour seat posts and, if not, what was normally paired with the Superbe set-up? The frame takes 27.2, maybe I should not care too much about brand. Have not selected a saddle yet either.
(e) Can I presume that these cranks are JIS taper? I hope so, that facilitates getting a sealed BB for sure. I was planning on scrounging some Italian cups, installing as-is and determining chainline, THEN ordering a sealed BB. The Fuji came with a spindle marked 117 but, for the Palo Alto, I recall running shorter. And, in the For-Sale topic in the link, nice close up of the chainrings, do those look unworn and, if not, what brand rings (Sugino?) interchange? To me they look fine.
(f) Wheels seem sweet, if low-flange; I do not think they need repacking or truing. As a 1980 bike might seem post-classic (to me) in terms of tires, maybe not gum sidewalls and I have a pair of black Continental 5000’s still in the packaging (25mm).
(g) Will Suntour downtube levers fit brazed-on Campy bosses?

juvela

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can recall seeing these in their myriad liveries in the shop's showroom at this time

BeeEmme Zee

one o' me visits was particularly memorable as was able to view a green Capo Sieger with its terraced full sloping crown locked up out front


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repechage

the red conspiracy- "honey, it is the same bike, its just Red and I changed a few things"

tiger1964 

Indeed, if the Palo Alto shop had not come through with original decals, my Plan B was: BIEMMEZETA

Great idea but she's already seen all five frames lined up together.

Markeologist

Well besides 60s Fords and Gitanes, I see we both like vintage Palo Alto bicycles as well! Can't attach link, so you should Google "Palo Alto Bicycles Turns 90" as published electronically by Peloton Magazine. Here is my late 70s red Ritchey Palo Alto tandem with a mix of Japanese, Italian, and American parts plus British saddles just like we commonly did back in those days. Did you pilfer all the parts off the Fuji? That is my preferred method of accumulating parts

tiger1964 

Still hoping someone has input on the six questions I posed in post #4.

Nice looking tandem, I am a fan of red w/yellow. My wife and I discussed getting a tandem long ago, but she rides a 19" frame and I ride a 24", so not much chance of finding one that fits us both.

True, a Ford fan but, oddly, my favorites are UK Fords like the Consul Classic Crayford Convertible, and the Ford Cortina-Lotus MkII.

I'll do search on the Palo Alto shop, I've never been there; the closest I've been is San Francisco in 2003 on the way to visiting wine country.

Everything is off the Fuji except the headset cups in the head tube and the pool for that is arriving today. I also splurged and bought a (cheap, not Park) headset installation tool instead of using dumb luck, a block of wood and a mallet -- $30 spread out over five headset installations seems reasonable!

So, next steps involve deciding what to do next - polish up the Fuji frame for sale, install decals, or install headsets.

non-fixie 

FWIW, Gazelle had a Champion Mondial model in the 1978 line-up which was equipped with Suntour Superbe. It was the most expensive version of their "A" frame-based series.

Specifications for the E.2 Superbe:

Suntour Superbe parts:

• headset
• crankset
• pedals
• side-pull brakes
• low flange hubs
• front and rear dérailleurs
• 5-speed freewheel

Other parts:

• saddle: Arius
• bars and stem: T.T.T.
• seat post: Laprade
• rims: Super Champion Competition

tiger1964 

Still hoping to get a few answer on some of the questions, especially (e), I had a Velo Orange sealed BB (117mm) and installed it, need to check chainline but chain stay is 8mm from inner chainring, 12mm from outer. I took micrometer measurements of the V.O. taper and the spindle (Nervar???) that came with the Suntour cranks, they seem awfully close in width at tip and at base of taper, and length of taper. Odd. (a) wow, that 28T seems to run right into the RD cage but I have not installed a chain yet, I should order a new one.

(g) I got answered, see other topic I had, all installed now. (c) I ordered Soma hoods after reading f them in another topic -- they seem fine. (d) that's OK too, I ordered a Velo Orange one, cheap and looks fine. If I trip over a Suntour one in 27.2 maybe I'll get that too.

tiger1964 

Well, looking online a bit further, I found this at VeloBase: CW-1000 which appears to be my crankset. And the web page says ISO??? So what is JIS, just Shimano and nothing else? Unless I am told otherwise (if anyone knows, please chime in), the JIS Velo Orange BB comes out yet again (originally bought for this frame a couple of years back to fit Avocet cranks and that did not work either). But the BB that came with the cranks are English thread, so unless I have Italian cups (are there won't-fit combinations between various cups and spindles?) in a box, I need to buy some and HOPE everything fits.

And I found TWO things about the Supreme front derailleur. (A) there's a pivoting/riveted housing stop? This frame uses under-BB routing of a bare cable. The path to the cable hold-down on the derailleur from the under-BB guide goes nearly through the guide, but not quite. So, remove and grind off the back of the rivet to remove the housing stop, I guess. (b) I felt some odd binding once I hooked up a lever & cable that has not there when the derailleur was just on the bike w/no cable and moved by hand. Looking closely, I see the cable-securing bolt's end further from the head, sticks through the actuating arm enough to contact the body of the derailleur; indeed, there's a deep gouge there that suggests the unit had been operated that way, perhaps for some time. Under the bolt head is the "claw washer" with a projection to prevent turning, and a notch for the cable, but it looks like it needs an additional washer under the head (missing?) to lift the bolt enough to clear the derailleur body... OR grind away the tip of the bolt some. EDIT: OK, (a) that housing stop simply threads on and off, readily came off, no grinding (b) a wee bit of grinding the tip without hitting the rest of the derailleur, and the projection is gone. Also used a jeweler's file to smooth down the gouging where the screw had been hitting the derailleur's frame. Re-installed and now very smooth!

3alarmer

.
...Suntour Superbe components were modeled in direct competition with the Campagnolo New Record stuff that was contemporary with it. So initially it had stuff like 144 BCD chainrings, and I do seem to recall ISO spindles as a part of the group. It's not unusual to be able to get them to work on another standard of square taper spindle, but it's not guaranteed.

This is explained very well on Sheldon Brown, here.

The most usual event is that when you mount an ISO socketed crank arm on JIS tapered spindle, it ends up farther out on the spindle. This affects chainline. You have to mount everything and measure to see how much, and in some cases it can be an improvement on what the previous owner's setup was. But If it ends up too far out of line, you need to get a different spindle in there. So at that point, unless you have a big box of spares hanging around, it's just better and easier to order what you really need, as a one piece sealed unit, with Italian threading and shell width/spindle length, online. It's preferable to spending a lot of time futzing around and mounting and dismounting a number of times with different setups.

tiger1964 

Thanks. Yes, I was reading that Sheldon Brown page just last night. As installed right now, on the Velo Orange BB, as mentioned above "need to check chainline but chain stay is 8mm from inner chainring, 12mm from outer." Also, by eye, chainline looks sweet and indeed, bolting up the front derailleur that came off the same bike the crankset and other components were from, cage sitting perfectly over the inner chainring without adjustments. Now that I have a digital micrometer I tend to measure everything, I was able determine that there is 6.39mm between the face at the end of the spindle, and a "bolt-up face", down in the crank arm's recess where the bolt goes. D'ya think I have enough engagement between spindle and arm? I'd surely like to leave it as-is, and I checked V.O.'s site and their next size down on an Italian BB is 110mm from the current 118mm, so maybe that's for track or 1x applications. Have not looked into other brands but the last no-name one I bought (Amazon?) made grinding noises like a cement mixer after a few rides, so I am wary of brands I am not familiar with.

3alarmer

.
...the issue is usually not whither you have enough engagement, but rather too much engagement, so the crank arm socket bottoms out on the spindle before you get full tension on the bolt. I can't see what you have, but in general, if I've got more than half of the socket filled with crank taper, I will ride it. It's not ideal, but few things in life are. Where people get into trouble is bottoming out.

With a square taper crank, you get a pretty solid press fit, and the crank bolts keep the arms attached under tension from the torque.

sd5782 

My 83 Trek came with that BB. As per another poster my research showed it was closer to the campy taper. I was tempted to change out the spindle and bearings but it operated SO smooth. The spindle if I recall was silver and marked 68 or 68W. It screamed quality so I kept it and glad I did..

My Superbe brakes had severe toe in on just one set and only on one side. I read here about bending the arms and gave it a light try and it seemed like a poor idea with those. In the end, I took one brake pad to the belt sander to get a better angle. Poor braking performance on my bike with the original pads, but flatlands here so keeping those cool Superbe holders..

tiger1964 

I think you've sold me on keeping it as-is. There's another topic going on Suprebe BB's and someone posted about keeping chainring-to-chainstay clearance really low, like 1mm, when I have 8mm. Wow, I'd worry about any runout causing a problem.

Nail-on-the-head. The Velo Orange BB is super smooth, I'd hate to give it up. Plus, I already had it. Plus, I've already installed it. That said, I seem to recall the "adjustable cup" having a dollop of thread locker originally, I fear now gone, perhaps I should at some point remove and apply some of that.

Ha, I've never de-toed-in brakes before! But I can, if needed. On this frame, the rear caliper is already with the brake pads as low as they can go, just barely engaging the rim properly, tempted to Dremel another mm or two. Don't know about the front because the fork is at the chrome shop for another two weeks. Hmm, I was thinking about Kool-Stops on all my bikes, but perhaps not available for some of the less common brake brands (there's a topic right now about pads for Zeus, for instance). Perhaps I can break to the micrometer, yet again, and see if I can determine dimensions. EDIT: From Kool-Stop's on website, they list a pad for the Supreme! PADS Well, isn't that Kool?

sd5782 

Actually, I wasn’t quite clear. I have that same 144 bcd crankset and it has the Superbe BB. That spindle is the mentioned one. Perhaps yours was changed to the Velo previously. My research showed the stock taper on that lovely crankset to be Campy or very close: closer than JIS. That is why mine is still stock so I don’t have to play with drive line on it. Now if a same era Sugino mighty tour 110 came my way, I would jump on it as I bet it would fit right on and help this old man on the low end.

3alarmer

...who made which, and to what dimensions, back then is pretty esoteric information. It's not nearly as simple as "There were only three standards, and all cranks were made to one of them." And it's largely not necessary to worry about it, if you stick to the basic principles on swapping spindles and cranks in that Sheldon Brown article.

On Campagnolo square taper NR cranks, when you call Phil Wood to order one of their sealed BB units, there are some years for which they will recommend a JIS taper as a better fit. I only know this because I once did it. Mostly, I guess I'm saying to try not to overthink it.

tiger1964 

PHOTO BELOW!

Making progress...

Speaking of brakes, I notice that in the full-down location on the rear brake, the pads more or less contact the rim surface but another 1-2mm would be comforting. Anyone Dremel-out calipers for a wee bit more reach and, if so, what’s the maximum (or in terms of metal left below the slot, the minimum)? And I have two “Campy Magic Washers” — what’s the real name for them? — to prevent the calipers from moving left right once the pivot bolt is snugged down, and I want to use them on the Suntour brakes, but that might cause the caliper to “lift” a fraction of a millimeter due to, ahem, tangential movement… no idea how to describe that. Yeah, it does that now that I checked. I see another topic on Superbes, similar issues, and I like the idea of grinding the threads not he holder for another 1-2mm. By my measurements, there’s 5mm of “meat" on the caliper at the bottom of the slot; it’s going to take courage to grind into this caliper.

And, using the cabling that came with the Fuji I bought for all the Suntour components it looks like the front cable especially is a wee bit short - thus I’ve ordered a replacement set.

I took the new chain back off and waxed it, using the bike chain wax. Using a new, small, crockpot, I found that “slow cooker” means just that, 1-3/4 hours to heat a pound of wax to 200F; then a mere minute to “swish” and coat the chain. Tired of the pretty, shiny silver KMC chains looking like I just pulled them from the La Brea Tar Pits after just one ride. Stiff upon installation but the maker says that goes away in the first 20 minutes of riding.

With the forks back from the chrome shop after replating, eager to install so I can finish up, doing the handlebars, front brake, etc. But it was hard to tell the condition of the headset in advance, a Campy that came along with all the Suntour stuff on the Fuji; the seller did state that the headset “could use some love”. Before installation, cleaned it up a bit and just holding races and bearing in my hand, too worn and the feel was gritty. Sigh. So, one-line order number 8 (?) to Velo Orange, this time for yet another of their sealed headsets, and couple of days’ wait. A VO headset with a Campy top nut - will that fool anyone? And, once here, had fun installing - I had bought earlier a headset press and, on other frames, had enough length to press the cups - but not this frame. So, back to tapping with a mallet and wood blocks for the first, eh, 75% of the installation, then finishing with the press. Looks good with the Campy “jewelry” on top, however!

Speaking of the forks, I thought they workmanship was very good for a re-chrome, but I hit it with Blue Magic and buffed until my arms ached a bit. The finish really pops now, and next is some of that Wolfgang sealant to ensure it stays that way. Time to install the Columbus decals. By the way, originally the fork crown’s Columbus, well, I guess you might call it “Panto”, was filled with yellow paint. I am inclined to not duplicate that, eh?

VO also supplied a water bottle cage in stainless, a semi-vintage design that I deem period-appropriate. Yet again, finding the right bottle is troublesome. No idea if Palo Alto offered their own brand of accessories. I did see on eBay a bottle from the 1992 Palo Alto Firefighters Olympics, that’s kinda germane. And I’ve never ever been to that city.

I stuck the Suntour pedals on, toe clips and all; likely to swap in some SPD’s once I’ve done a shakedown. Meanwhile, if I have any drivetrain squeaks and creaks, at least it’s not pedal-to-cleat issues.

KenNC

Nice! Good looking color combination with the lettering.

tiger1964 

Thanks. As you might see in my other topic on my 1961 Gitane, I think I am getting a very different "look" on the same color powder coat by using different accent colors on tape, cables and accessories. Plus, I have three other frames coated at the same time -- and I am running behind on getting those together -- that I plan to accessorize in yet different colors.

I just got lucky on complimenting the decals' colors.

1 Lugnut

In the 80's I often visited PA Bikes to buy parts for a bike build & always stared at all those PA frames hanging on the walls. I could never could get an answer from them as to who made them though...? I still have a few cataloges from that time period & glance at them often cuz they have other tech info contained w/in them...
I did walk away with one frame they had on the wall, but it wasn't a PA frame. Was a new Mondia frameset from '82, made with Reynolds 531 Spl Lightwt tubing & it was red! I put it together w/ all the lightest cmpts I could muster up & in the end, it weighed 19.5 lbs. Not bad for a 60 cm steel frame.

Although a little too big for me, I've held onto it all this time due to it's stiffness & ride quality...


Recently made a few changes to the bike utilizing Campy 8-sp F&R Derailluers w/ index shifters & a cassette hub...


fwiw: I have filed/dremelled brake calipers to get more reach on the rim with the pads, but that was long ago!
Eventually, I installed a drop-bolt on the rear caliper which was adequate.

Wildwood 

I too visited the bike shop back in the '80s.
Nice Mondia, .

.....altho, I call mine "sort of a reddish burnt orange color".

tiger1964 

Looks nice. This prompted me to weigh my PA, it's 22.6LB as shown in the photo - no water bottle or pump yet. I don't think that's bad for a taller size. No idea if the Suntour parts are lighter or heavier than the original Campy/Avocet stuff.

I was hoping to have worked up the nerve to hack away at the rear caliper this AM, then got an opportinuty to get my vaccination, so there went my morning.