Black ice
11-12-11, 12:14 PM
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You can't "tuck and roll out of a crash' on ice because of the speed of the event. I've never crashed on ice where I had much time to think about anything. Even in mountain biking, crashes are much slower events and usually preceded by an "Oh crap!" moment. I've never experienced mountain bike crashes that happen as quickly as crashes on ice.
Yes, you might be able to bail on a mountain bike trail and expect a reasonable result. Most often, however, you want to keep trying to avoid going down so you fight to the last minute but slowing down, trying to find a better place to crash, adjust your body, etc. But in a mountain bike crash your front wheel generally isn't sliding out from under you. Brakes, tires and friction are usually effective. On ice brakes tires and friction are ineffective or, more probably, the cause of the crash.
You don't know me. You don't know where or how or what kind of terrain that I ride. I don't huck off cliffs but that just puts me in with 99.99% of mountain bike riders who either don't have the nerve to huck off cliffs or who don't have a death wish. My mountain biking tends more towards cross country riding which is very, very different from extreme riding. However, if you watch videos of extreme mountain bike riders, even they don't always jump off the bike nor do they always land on their feet. Watch them closely and you'll see that when they hit the ground (if they don't land on their feet) they are almost all in rag doll mode. It's the way you avoid injury. In the video below, you don't see a whole lot of people bailing off their bikes
As for endos, those fall into two categories: relatively slow speed events or unexpected high speed events. If they are slow, you might try to bail but you likely can't get untangled from the bike and are just have to deal with the embarrassment. If they are high speed events, you have about a much reaction time as you do on ice and all you can do is try to avoid broken bones. I've done both. In neither would I try to jump off the bike. Look at the guy who tries to bail around 55 seconds in the video. All he end up doing was damaging the dangly bits.
You busted hairytoes chops about not thinking that studded tires are worth it, you say that clipless are dangerous in winter and then you admit that you ride clipless (occasionally) in those conditions. The reader can draw their own conclusions.
Yes, you might be able to bail on a mountain bike trail and expect a reasonable result. Most often, however, you want to keep trying to avoid going down so you fight to the last minute but slowing down, trying to find a better place to crash, adjust your body, etc. But in a mountain bike crash your front wheel generally isn't sliding out from under you. Brakes, tires and friction are usually effective. On ice brakes tires and friction are ineffective or, more probably, the cause of the crash.
You don't know me. You don't know where or how or what kind of terrain that I ride. I don't huck off cliffs but that just puts me in with 99.99% of mountain bike riders who either don't have the nerve to huck off cliffs or who don't have a death wish. My mountain biking tends more towards cross country riding which is very, very different from extreme riding. However, if you watch videos of extreme mountain bike riders, even they don't always jump off the bike nor do they always land on their feet. Watch them closely and you'll see that when they hit the ground (if they don't land on their feet) they are almost all in rag doll mode. It's the way you avoid injury. In the video below, you don't see a whole lot of people bailing off their bikes
As for endos, those fall into two categories: relatively slow speed events or unexpected high speed events. If they are slow, you might try to bail but you likely can't get untangled from the bike and are just have to deal with the embarrassment. If they are high speed events, you have about a much reaction time as you do on ice and all you can do is try to avoid broken bones. I've done both. In neither would I try to jump off the bike. Look at the guy who tries to bail around 55 seconds in the video. All he end up doing was damaging the dangly bits.
You busted hairytoes chops about not thinking that studded tires are worth it, you say that clipless are dangerous in winter and then you admit that you ride clipless (occasionally) in those conditions. The reader can draw their own conclusions.
Does it take your feet and body over with it?
Now imagine your feet aren't fixed onto the bicycle, the instance it begins to slide out your feet will begin to separate from it, your balance remains mostly the same. All you need todo is lift off and prepare to tuck and roll or you can push the bicycle away from you(which is much easier on ice).
Around here lots of people push bicycles away when doing all sorts of things mountain biking, this includes dirt jumping, drops, skinnies, steep inclines, sliding out in a corner and yes even hucking off cliffs. So pushing the bicycle away is not only for that 1% you see. I know why you want to pigeonhole crashing that way(to falsely prove your point) and that is dishonest. People even hop over the bars by pushing the bicycle under them when they endo.
Nobody wants to go rag dolling down with the ship, you watch the pros crash and you'll see how they try to control it. None of them always hold onto the bicycle. It is bad technique to try and ride out a real crash - that is how you get really hurt.
Clipless are dangerous compared to platforms in the winter(i know), studded tires are worth it. Not too hard to understand.
Last edited by electrik; 11-12-11 at 12:18 PM.
11-12-11, 01:37 PM
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Since this is a thread about riding on black ice, can you come up with examples and films of crashes on black ice?
I really don't understand why you keep harping on about this. Nobody here has said that studded tyres aren't worth it on black ice.
I really don't understand why you keep harping on about this. Nobody here has said that studded tyres aren't worth it on black ice.
11-12-11, 01:41 PM
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Studded tires are a must for most winters around here. Platform pedals are much safer in winter then clipless. I use platform pedals on my FG bikes in winter, and I never had my foot slip off of the pedal. I don't want to be attatched to my bike when riding in slippery conditions.
11-12-11, 01:43 PM
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I certainly didn't say studded tires aren't worth it on black ice. The problem is cyccommute seems to want to tell people crashing while clipped in, rag dolling around and holding onto the bicycle is safest(post #5). That is the only point worth "harping" on because it's hogwash.
11-12-11, 07:20 PM
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And just for eletrik, here's another series of crashes (winter mountain biking). Notice just how few of these guys try to bail off the bike during a crash and how many ride it down. In 13 crashes, 2 guys tried to bail with mixed results. One guy even grinds the dangly bits on the rear wheel. That's not good.
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Last edited by cyccommute; 11-12-11 at 07:27 PM.
11-12-11, 10:05 PM
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Like this one? No way was the guy going to be able to bail off the bike and avoid a crash. Or this one? There are two cyclists that go down about 55 seconds in. Neither appears to have been clipped but it didn't stop them from hitting the ground.
And just for eletrik, here's another series of crashes (winter mountain biking). Notice just how few of these guys try to bail off the bike during a crash and how many ride it down. In 13 crashes, 2 guys tried to bail with mixed results. One guy even grinds the dangly bits on the rear wheel. That's not good.
And just for eletrik, here's another series of crashes (winter mountain biking). Notice just how few of these guys try to bail off the bike during a crash and how many ride it down. In 13 crashes, 2 guys tried to bail with mixed results. One guy even grinds the dangly bits on the rear wheel. That's not good.
It still doesn't solve the problem of the bicycle uncontrollably slipping while you're affixed to it. It's safer to not be attached when that happens.
11-13-11, 06:13 AM
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Like this one? No way was the guy going to be able to bail off the bike and avoid a crash. Or this one? There are two cyclists that go down about 55 seconds in. Neither appears to have been clipped but it didn't stop them from hitting the ground.
And just for eletrik, here's another series of crashes (winter mountain biking). Notice just how few of these guys try to bail off the bike during a crash and how many ride it down. In 13 crashes, 2 guys tried to bail with mixed results. One guy even grinds the dangly bits on the rear wheel. That's not good.
And just for eletrik, here's another series of crashes (winter mountain biking). Notice just how few of these guys try to bail off the bike during a crash and how many ride it down. In 13 crashes, 2 guys tried to bail with mixed results. One guy even grinds the dangly bits on the rear wheel. That's not good.
11-13-11, 11:00 AM
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Yeah, when on the inside of a corner riding it down is usually a good option(one of the few times). However that is the exception to the rule to all those other crashes i mentioned and i didn't see much limp rag dolling there.
It still doesn't solve the problem of the bicycle uncontrollably slipping while you're affixed to it. It's safer to not be attached when that happens.
It still doesn't solve the problem of the bicycle uncontrollably slipping while you're affixed to it. It's safer to not be attached when that happens.
Let's look at the physics of crashes on ice: The rear wheel slips out to one side which, in itself, isn't a problem. The front wheel loses traction which is a huge problem. You, as the rider, can't countersteer to get your bike upright again. It's inevitable that you are going to hit the ground. Now the fun stuff happens.
If you try to save yourself by throwing out a body part, that body part is going to hit the ground first with the full momentum of the bicycle, rider and any extra weight the system happens to be carrying. If you throw out your leg, the bicycle and your body are moving in one direction while your leg is moving in another direction. If you like being the wishbone at Thanksgiving, this will be your moment. But, just like the wishbone, something is likely to break. Even the most limber person is probably not going to be able to do the splits without some preparation and cold isn't conducive to limber muscles, joints and ligaments. The best course to keep your legs inside the bicycle.
If you throw out an arm, your arm from wrist to shoulder to neck becomes the focus of an awful lot of load. If you don't break your wrist, you could very easily transmit that force up the arm to break any one of several bones along the way up to the collar. The human collar bone is a terribly fragile bone and pretty painful to break and slow to heal. You could also tear a whole host of muscles and ligaments. You could pull your arms in but now your shoulder...the bit you fear hurting...is in danger.
Now say that you could jump clear of the bike. What are you planning on doing to avoid hitting your other bits on the ground. You've got momentum, you've got a nearly frictionless surface, you've got a biped sliding on ice on two (or one) feet. You are likely to end up on the ground in a heap anyway. You've almost guaranteed that some part of your body is going to make a painful impact with the ground. Which part? Quick, you don't have a lot of time to decide. Take it on the coccyx...even more painful than a collar bone. Take it at the shoulder...wait, that's what you are afraid of. Too late. Something hit and it's gonna hurt.
Again, say you could jump clear of the bike and not manage to hurt yourself. You are sliding like a seal on an iceberg. The bike is sliding but the bike has all kind of protuberances that are slowing it down. You are sliding in the same direction but the bike is sliding a little slower than you are. Do the math. What hits what?
Let's say your get clear of the bike. You are still a seal on an iceberg. If you happen to hit something, you hit it. Just like the fourth guy (about 20 seconds) in the Innerleithen video who just about creams the tree. Most of the other riders crashing in the video let the bike take the hit to the tree. He tries to save himself and almost becomes a limb for his efforts.
Now look what happens if you stay with the bike: Some muscle mass is going to hit the ground in either case. But the bike becomes an extension of your skeleton and the handlebars, frame and bags take a lot of the impact. By being loose during the fall, your connective tissues take less of a beating. By hanging onto the bars, you know where the bike is and it doesn't become a separate missile that you can hit or will hit you. The bars also let you leverage yourself away from the bike so that that all important shoulder joint doesn't get damaged.
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
11-13-11, 02:11 PM
#34
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cycocommute, if the rear wheel gives out, you tend to roll sideways. If the front packs it in, you are usually heading sideways, but slightly forward. Sometimes you are lucky enough to get the bike to take most of the hit. Whenever I've crashed I tend to stick out my arm... even though I know its the worst thing to do.
Luckily in winter I'm going so slow, there is little or no damage. I've fallen 3 times.
Luckily in winter I'm going so slow, there is little or no damage. I've fallen 3 times.
11-13-11, 02:38 PM
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Prevention is better then cure. It's best not to fall in a first place. That's what studded tires are for.. to make your winter commute Safer and minimize the possibility of crashing on ice. Yes I know some people crash even with studs but then you are doing something wrong...Sure studded tires have their limits, but they will allow you to ride safely in conditions where regular tires would never be able to... I don't understand why some people are against using studs. Do you really enjoy crashing on ice ?? Do you like to show off your tuck and roll and rag doll skills in front of other people ? I prefer not to crash that's why I use studs. Around where I live it would be absolutly stupid and foolish not to use studded tires in winter time. As for pedals, I will continue to use my platforms, I don't even want to think about clipless.
11-13-11, 05:24 PM
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Crashing on ice is just about the definition of an inside corner crash. You are highly unlikely to go over the high side when you crash on ice because you don't have much momentum, there's nothing to catch the wheel and you aren't flying through the air. Every ice crash I've experienced is exactly like the crashes in first 2 videos. The bike goes down first and takes the rider with it. Trying to put your foot out does no good whatsoever and, as hairytoes points out, results in you and the bike going one way and the leg you put out going in a very uncomfortable other direction.
Let's look at the physics of crashes on ice: The rear wheel slips out to one side which, in itself, isn't a problem. The front wheel loses traction which is a huge problem. You, as the rider, can't countersteer to get your bike upright again. It's inevitable that you are going to hit the ground. Now the fun stuff happens.
If you try to save yourself by throwing out a body part, that body part is going to hit the ground first with the full momentum of the bicycle, rider and any extra weight the system happens to be carrying. If you throw out your leg, the bicycle and your body are moving in one direction while your leg is moving in another direction. If you like being the wishbone at Thanksgiving, this will be your moment. But, just like the wishbone, something is likely to break. Even the most limber person is probably not going to be able to do the splits without some preparation and cold isn't conducive to limber muscles, joints and ligaments. The best course to keep your legs inside the bicycle.
If you throw out an arm, your arm from wrist to shoulder to neck becomes the focus of an awful lot of load. If you don't break your wrist, you could very easily transmit that force up the arm to break any one of several bones along the way up to the collar. The human collar bone is a terribly fragile bone and pretty painful to break and slow to heal. You could also tear a whole host of muscles and ligaments. You could pull your arms in but now your shoulder...the bit you fear hurting...is in danger.
Now say that you could jump clear of the bike. What are you planning on doing to avoid hitting your other bits on the ground. You've got momentum, you've got a nearly frictionless surface, you've got a biped sliding on ice on two (or one) feet. You are likely to end up on the ground in a heap anyway. You've almost guaranteed that some part of your body is going to make a painful impact with the ground. Which part? Quick, you don't have a lot of time to decide. Take it on the coccyx...even more painful than a collar bone. Take it at the shoulder...wait, that's what you are afraid of. Too late. Something hit and it's gonna hurt.
Again, say you could jump clear of the bike and not manage to hurt yourself. You are sliding like a seal on an iceberg. The bike is sliding but the bike has all kind of protuberances that are slowing it down. You are sliding in the same direction but the bike is sliding a little slower than you are. Do the math. What hits what?
Let's say your get clear of the bike. You are still a seal on an iceberg. If you happen to hit something, you hit it. Just like the fourth guy (about 20 seconds) in the Innerleithen video who just about creams the tree. Most of the other riders crashing in the video let the bike take the hit to the tree. He tries to save himself and almost becomes a limb for his efforts.
Now look what happens if you stay with the bike: Some muscle mass is going to hit the ground in either case. But the bike becomes an extension of your skeleton and the handlebars, frame and bags take a lot of the impact. By being loose during the fall, your connective tissues take less of a beating. By hanging onto the bars, you know where the bike is and it doesn't become a separate missile that you can hit or will hit you. The bars also let you leverage yourself away from the bike so that that all important shoulder joint doesn't get damaged.
Let's look at the physics of crashes on ice: The rear wheel slips out to one side which, in itself, isn't a problem. The front wheel loses traction which is a huge problem. You, as the rider, can't countersteer to get your bike upright again. It's inevitable that you are going to hit the ground. Now the fun stuff happens.
If you try to save yourself by throwing out a body part, that body part is going to hit the ground first with the full momentum of the bicycle, rider and any extra weight the system happens to be carrying. If you throw out your leg, the bicycle and your body are moving in one direction while your leg is moving in another direction. If you like being the wishbone at Thanksgiving, this will be your moment. But, just like the wishbone, something is likely to break. Even the most limber person is probably not going to be able to do the splits without some preparation and cold isn't conducive to limber muscles, joints and ligaments. The best course to keep your legs inside the bicycle.
If you throw out an arm, your arm from wrist to shoulder to neck becomes the focus of an awful lot of load. If you don't break your wrist, you could very easily transmit that force up the arm to break any one of several bones along the way up to the collar. The human collar bone is a terribly fragile bone and pretty painful to break and slow to heal. You could also tear a whole host of muscles and ligaments. You could pull your arms in but now your shoulder...the bit you fear hurting...is in danger.
Now say that you could jump clear of the bike. What are you planning on doing to avoid hitting your other bits on the ground. You've got momentum, you've got a nearly frictionless surface, you've got a biped sliding on ice on two (or one) feet. You are likely to end up on the ground in a heap anyway. You've almost guaranteed that some part of your body is going to make a painful impact with the ground. Which part? Quick, you don't have a lot of time to decide. Take it on the coccyx...even more painful than a collar bone. Take it at the shoulder...wait, that's what you are afraid of. Too late. Something hit and it's gonna hurt.
Again, say you could jump clear of the bike and not manage to hurt yourself. You are sliding like a seal on an iceberg. The bike is sliding but the bike has all kind of protuberances that are slowing it down. You are sliding in the same direction but the bike is sliding a little slower than you are. Do the math. What hits what?
Let's say your get clear of the bike. You are still a seal on an iceberg. If you happen to hit something, you hit it. Just like the fourth guy (about 20 seconds) in the Innerleithen video who just about creams the tree. Most of the other riders crashing in the video let the bike take the hit to the tree. He tries to save himself and almost becomes a limb for his efforts.
Now look what happens if you stay with the bike: Some muscle mass is going to hit the ground in either case. But the bike becomes an extension of your skeleton and the handlebars, frame and bags take a lot of the impact. By being loose during the fall, your connective tissues take less of a beating. By hanging onto the bars, you know where the bike is and it doesn't become a separate missile that you can hit or will hit you. The bars also let you leverage yourself away from the bike so that that all important shoulder joint doesn't get damaged.
Here is how i crash on ice, the bicycle slips out from under me I push it down and drop my feet to the ground and then fall on my ass or roll.
Falling on your side is a very bad idea, for reasons you mentioned, but that is what will happen with clips and ice because you'll never get detached from the bicycle in time unless you see it coming.
11-14-11, 08:15 AM
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I've never had a crash on ice where there has been time to think about moving or pushing the bike. If it's happening that slowly, I can always pull the bike back under me and keep going. That's riding without studs, maybe it's different with studs.
My crashes have all happened on ice so slick it's been impossible to walk, and I've had to crawl to get to some grass or something where I can get upright again. If you are thinking "why didn't this idiot get studded tyres", it's because I had a 25mile commute where only the first 2.5miles had any ice. The rest was gritted, and no snow.
11-14-11, 08:26 AM
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For an inside corner crash to work you need traction to ride the bicycle down - you can't ride a bicycle down on ice.
Here is how i crash on ice, the bicycle slips out from under me I push it down and drop my feet to the ground and then fall on my ass or roll.
Falling on your side is a very bad idea, for reasons you mentioned, but that is what will happen with clips and ice because you'll never get detached from the bicycle in time unless you see it coming.
Here is how i crash on ice, the bicycle slips out from under me I push it down and drop my feet to the ground and then fall on my ass or roll.
Falling on your side is a very bad idea, for reasons you mentioned, but that is what will happen with clips and ice because you'll never get detached from the bicycle in time unless you see it coming.
Either you are riding in slo-mo, or you have reflexes and moves faster than Neo dodging bullets.
I've never had a crash on ice where there has been time to think about moving or pushing the bike. If it's happening that slowly, I can always pull the bike back under me and keep going. That's riding without studs, maybe it's different with studs.
My crashes have all happened on ice so slick it's been impossible to walk, and I've had to crawl to get to some grass or something where I can get upright again. If you are thinking "why didn't this idiot get studded tyres", it's because I had a 25mile commute where only the first 2.5miles had any ice. The rest was gritted, and no snow.
I've never had a crash on ice where there has been time to think about moving or pushing the bike. If it's happening that slowly, I can always pull the bike back under me and keep going. That's riding without studs, maybe it's different with studs.
My crashes have all happened on ice so slick it's been impossible to walk, and I've had to crawl to get to some grass or something where I can get upright again. If you are thinking "why didn't this idiot get studded tyres", it's because I had a 25mile commute where only the first 2.5miles had any ice. The rest was gritted, and no snow.
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
11-14-11, 08:43 AM
#39
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Prevention is better then cure. It's best not to fall in a first place. That's what studded tires are for.. to make your winter commute Safer and minimize the possibility of crashing on ice. Yes I know some people crash even with studs but then you are doing something wrong...Sure studded tires have their limits, but they will allow you to ride safely in conditions where regular tires would never be able to... I don't understand why some people are against using studs. Do you really enjoy crashing on ice ?? Do you like to show off your tuck and roll and rag doll skills in front of other people ? I prefer not to crash that's why I use studs. Around where I live it would be absolutly stupid and foolish not to use studded tires in winter time. As for pedals, I will continue to use my platforms, I don't even want to think about clipless.
Most of my crashes aren't really spectator sports. I don't like to crash. I'm not 'showing off' my skills. I'm using my skills to keep me from being injured. If you don't know how to crash and how to react to a crash, your likelihood of injury increases significantly...whether you are clipped into the pedals or not. Of course you fight like crazy to keep crashes from happening but once you've reached the point of no return, it's best to just let them happen, relax and enjoy the ride as much as is humanly possible.
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
11-14-11, 04:38 PM
#41
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I certainly didn't say studded tires aren't worth it on black ice. The problem is cyccommute seems to want to tell people crashing while clipped in, rag dolling around and holding onto the bicycle is safest(post #5). That is the only point worth "harping" on because it's hogwash.
Platform pedals and studded tires, people. if you have any concerns at all, it's better to run studs.
I like having two identical wheelsets for the off season commuter - one with studs- with cassette installed, switching out wheels for studded tires takes less than 5 minutes in the morning if you have any concerns at all.
i'd rather be slightly slower and have the security of studs, then be on the bike as ice forms around your commute as it gets dark.
My advice if you're riding into a patch of black ice without studs? both feet on the ground, straddling bike, get low and loose. 4 points of contact. it's like glissading with a bike between your legs.
Last edited by Bekologist; 11-14-11 at 04:42 PM.
11-14-11, 07:20 PM
#42
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In the video, those guys are crashing on an inside corner because they don't have traction. They are riding the bike down because they don't have anywhere else to go. And what do you mean by "...you can't ride a bike down on ice"? Where are you going to go? Hover in mid-air? Jump to a higher plane? Take flight? Jaunte to safety?
11-14-11, 09:07 PM
#43
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11-15-11, 06:35 AM
#45
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i'd like to set up a cruiser 7 speed bike with studded tires & saddle set low enough feet can squarely touch ground while riding.
Been a long time drift steerer but have come to like the security of studded tires for winter riding.
I remember from my youth, misjudging speeds on downhills, drifting gracefully into cars while making turns. Once you lose your adhesion to the ground and everything is sliding, a rider has little control over the bike.
black ice is much less forgiving and slick than any of the white ice conditions in this video i found of kids drifting their BMX bikes. one of the kids drifts into an oncoming vehicle at about 3:00 into the video.
Been a long time drift steerer but have come to like the security of studded tires for winter riding.
I remember from my youth, misjudging speeds on downhills, drifting gracefully into cars while making turns. Once you lose your adhesion to the ground and everything is sliding, a rider has little control over the bike.
black ice is much less forgiving and slick than any of the white ice conditions in this video i found of kids drifting their BMX bikes. one of the kids drifts into an oncoming vehicle at about 3:00 into the video.
Last edited by Bekologist; 11-15-11 at 06:46 AM.
11-15-11, 06:39 AM
#46
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This guy is using a studded tire on the front.
11-15-11, 07:46 AM
#47
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Nearly every rider in the video feel over. Being clipped or not being clipped wouldn't have made a difference, although clipping in doesn't mean that you can't get out of the clipless pedals quickly. Several of the riders who did put their foot out caught it on the lip of the pavement. I'll bet that hurt more then just falling down. It didn't save them from crashing.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
11-15-11, 08:11 AM
#48
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I'm with electrik. Cycocommute's contrarian nature is leading him to give REALLY POOR ADVICE in this thread.
Platform pedals and studded tires, people. if you have any concerns at all, it's better to run studs.
I like having two identical wheelsets for the off season commuter - one with studs- with cassette installed, switching out wheels for studded tires takes less than 5 minutes in the morning if you have any concerns at all.
i'd rather be slightly slower and have the security of studs, then be on the bike as ice forms around your commute as it gets dark.
My advice if you're riding into a patch of black ice without studs? both feet on the ground, straddling bike, get low and loose. 4 points of contact. it's like glissading with a bike between your legs.
Platform pedals and studded tires, people. if you have any concerns at all, it's better to run studs.
I like having two identical wheelsets for the off season commuter - one with studs- with cassette installed, switching out wheels for studded tires takes less than 5 minutes in the morning if you have any concerns at all.
i'd rather be slightly slower and have the security of studs, then be on the bike as ice forms around your commute as it gets dark.
My advice if you're riding into a patch of black ice without studs? both feet on the ground, straddling bike, get low and loose. 4 points of contact. it's like glissading with a bike between your legs.
As for pedals, clipless aren't death traps. My feet can pop out of a set of clipless and be on the ground as quickly as any one on platforms...not that putting your foot out is going to get you much of anywhere in a crash on black ice. We've see video after video of people crashing on glare ice now and in most case getting your foot on the ground has little effect. It is not going to save you from crashing. Look at that
My advice on riding over a patch of black ice without studs is to not do anything stupid when you hit it. Don't try to slow down in the middle of it (you should do that before you get on it). Put your feet parallel to the ground and coast across. Don't turn, don't change course, don't try to stop, and, in the words of Loudon, "don't laugh and don't fart and don't sneeze". If you do have to stop, do it very carefully with very gentle brake pressure.
And, if conditions are like those in one of the videos I posted or like those in the Belgium video and you don't have studs, maybe it's a day not to go out on a bicycle. Even if you do have studs, it might be prudent to not go bicycling. Studs won't protect you from sliding cars.
Have you even ridden a bicycle to the ground? It only works because you get a bit of resistance from the dirt as you slid out thereby converting some of your vertical energy into the pushing out of dirt. Think about a berm. There is no such resistance on ice, the second you lean the body over you will just brutally slap right over on your shoulder and head. Not pretty, but thankfully the same lack of resistance means the bicycle can slid out right from under you so quickly that you're left standing mostly upright like a table set after the tablecloth has been rapidly pulled out from under it.
"Have you even ridden a bicycle to the ground?" You mean crashed right? Damned tootin'! I've crashed on dirt, I've crashed on pavement, I've crashed on wet pavement, I've crashed on snow, I've crashed on ice. In each and every case, my shoulder and head aren't the first thing to hit the ground. Nor are yours, I'd hazard a guess, unless you have really really broad shoulders...like 6 feet wide.The first thing to hit the ground when the bike goes out from under you to the side is your thighs and butt. Look at all the videos posted. I don't see a single one...even the girl in the Belgium video who crashes at high speed...hit their shoulders. They hit on their legs, then their hip, then their torso. By the time their shoulders get to the pavement most of the impact has been dissipated by the rest of their body and their bicycle.
And I didn't see a single one left standing "like a table set after the tablecloth has been rapidly pulled out from under it" while their bike is sliding away from them.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
11-15-11, 09:04 AM
#49
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Have you even ridden a bicycle to the ground? It only works because you get a bit of resistance from the dirt as you slid out thereby converting some of your vertical energy into the pushing out of dirt. Think about a berm. There is no such resistance on ice, the second you lean the body over you will just brutally slap right over on your shoulder and head. Not pretty, but thankfully the same lack of resistance means the bicycle can slid out right from under you so quickly that you're left standing mostly upright like a table set after the tablecloth has been rapidly pulled out from under it.
cyccommute is surely right that it's better to not crash in the first place, and the bottom line is when we do, we all just do what we can. I want studded tires so bad I can taste it, but we'll only have 3 or 4 days where I'd need them. If we're unlucky. So it's mountain bike, go slow, and probably fall a few times.
11-15-11, 11:13 AM
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I am concerned about frost on the road -- Do I need studs for our nighttime November frost, or is that overkill? Forecast temp tonight @ commute time is about 35 deg. F, dewpt high 20s, windy, sky cover nil. Ground is far from frozen yet, heavy frost this morning, colder tonight than last. Am ordering studded tires and preparing the bike it's to go on, but neither are ready yet. Thanks for opinions/experiences. Sorry if this is hijacking-- Does the o.p.'s 'black ice' = frost?