njkayaker

The concrete separated cycle paths aren't common "in Europe" generally.

Not in Germany or the Netherlands either.

In Europe, there are many more miles of cycle paths that don't have concrete barriers.

Quite a few of them are part of the "sidewalk".

(Not talking about rural areas.)

mr_bill

18 inch curb isn't so much a "concrete barrier" - it's a tall curb.

It is quite common for there to be a standard curb, but then include additional deterrence such as bollards, additional segmented curbs, or planters/plantings between general traffic lanes and the bikelane.

Another common thing to see is a mountable curb for parking, where parking is used as the separator. (There are good examples of this in Frankfurt, and horrible examples of this in Frankfurt.)

But it's not like the cattle chute Jersey Barrier separated bikelane that you can sometimes see (ineptly) installed around here.

The key point is it is not "just paint" separating the bike lane from general traffic.

-mr. bill

work4bike

Yeah, I'm guilty of that and a main reason I don't join up with the League of American Bicyclists.

I guess I'm just an old dog and don't want no MUPs

hubcyclist

Well, cyclists, like any group, are not homogeneous, and different riders have different goals. While I appreciate infrastructure like bike paths and use it for family rides, as someone who likes to train and ride competitively, our kind is not welcome on bike paths, for obvious reasons. So when infrastructure is created, it kind of creates the expectation of segregation among motorists. One time I was riding on one my usual loops that goes through Lexington, MA, where the popular Minuteman path is. However I was on the main road, and going in a different direction from that path, and I heard someone yell to get on the bike path and I looked over and the driver was flipping me off. But if I were to get on the bike path on a busy summer weekend, I couldn't ride at my own pace. I also tend to believe that segregated barrier lanes just gives motorists a reason to not have to pay attention to cyclists, when really the solution to all of our troubles is having folks pay attention and be patient and observe speed limits.

mr_bill

As far as "our kind" (people who ride bikes)

On the Minuteman:

• There are some hours on some days where "our kind" can ride fast indeed, and the largest hazards you'll probably face are squirrels and bunnies.
• There are some hours on some days where "our kind" can ride fast indeed for long stretches, but interspersed with slowing for traffic occasionally.
• There are some hours on some days where "our kind" will spend long stretches slowed by traffic, with occasional fast stretches.

On Mass Ave:

• There are some hours on some days where "our kind" can ride fast indeed, and the largest hazards you'll probably face are squirrels and bunnies.
• There are some hours on some days where "our kind" can ride fast indeed for long stretches, but interspersed with slowing for traffic occasionally.
• There are some hours on some days where "our kind" will spend long stretches slowed by traffic, with occasional fast stretches.

On different sections of Mass Ave less than once a year I've been flipped off and yelled at to "get off my road" and ride:

• On the sidewalk
• In the bikelane
• On a bikepath

What do these things have in common? (Hint, they each are attached to a middle finger.)

-mr. bill

Leisesturm

Be careful what you ask for. In Portland a 20 bike pile-up in a 'cattle-shute' type of bike lane wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. And even if you didn't go down in the first wave of casualties you would still have to hump your 50lb. fully decked commuter rig over 18" of concrete and back. What is wrong with people? How many miles of barrier is reasonable? What cost for 1,000... 2,000... 6,000... miles of barrier? Automobile drivers would insist that cyclists pay for it themselves. How many committed road cyclists are there and would they suddenly vanish off the radar when called on to step up and pay their apportionment. Be careful what y'all's wish for.

jefnvk

Yep, especially in the bike portion of the lane.

Maybe that is because cyclists are not one unified group who all use bicycles the same? I'm quite happy with MUPs, I'm fine with riding on the road, if infrastructure was being spent I'd rather see more MUPs.

And in Amsterdam, you share cycle lanes with scooters and motorcycles and even tiny little cars. I'd love to see the threads on how much folks hate that if we were to adopt their system. Even then, I spent quite a bit of time in Amsterdam on regular streets.

njkayaker

Some of those are narrow and twisty (especially, at intersections). This type works for slow cycling.

mr_bill

Most Americans don't get how often you ride a bicycle on "regular" streets in Amsterdam. There are LOTS of streets where "infra" makes no sense.

Never encountered a "tiny little car" in the cycle lanes (either the on street or off street variety), and I recall only one scooter that could have been a "motorcycle" - either way it was at scooter speeds.

I have to admit I did not get used to the people riding scooters in Amsterdam, but even the worst of them didn't rise much above annoying. But I have to admit I *HATED* the people on scooters and people on motorcycles in Seoul.

-mr. bill

jefnvk

Bike lane behind the train station, with tiny little car. Saw a few in the weekend I was there.

I ran into quite a few motorcycles on the paths, many riding far in excess of their maximum permissible speed. This was very true on the cycle paths outside of town, where they'd blow right on by.

EDIT: https://www.fastcompany.com/3068522/...ing-bike-lanes Guess the "motorcycles" I was seeing was big mopeds who had the proper license plate, but with mandated speed limiters disabled.

jefnvk

It wasn't even just in Amsterdam, we went from Brussels to Amsterdam on bikes. I'd wager the majority of the time, even though we were on signed bike routes, we were just on normal roads as we would have been in Michigan. The separate infrastructure was largely confined to major roads in larger urban areas, or MUP type paths that didn't parallel a road at all. Then there were the goofy "bike streets", where they were bike paths that motor vehicles were allowed limited access at slow speeds to access some sort of property through which they ran.

Drivers were far more courteous when we were on the road than they are here, though.

genec

Therein lies the key... for some reason drivers in the US feel they and they alone "own the road."

I saw very courteous drivers in Oulu too... They have an extensive bike network in certain areas of the town, but in others, one shares the road. My experience was that drivers were watching and watching out for me.

In the US my experience is that drivers barely watch for buses.

All this says something rather particular about our drivers here in the US. We know they are just as human as drivers in other countries... so what exactly is missing that makes them act in their cycle adverse manner, here.

jefnvk

Personally, I think it is the joke of a licensing scheme that grants anyone with a pulse a license and refuses to remove it until they have proven a pile of irrefutable incompetencies, but that is just my opinion.

Driving is treated as a God given right here, where folks don't even lose it after multiple DUIs or fatal accidents in which they were recklessly at fault, whereas there it is treated as something they will have no problem taking away in a heartbeat and letting you ride a bus.

genec

I think you are right.

I worked with company that had an office in China... some of their engineers came here to get training/exchange ideas with the group in the US. One thing a couple of engineers did was run right out and got a drivers license.

"Much easier and cheaper in the US." They wanted the licenses so they could rent cars and practice driving here, before tackling the much harder test in China.

It is reported that the driving test is also much harder and more expensive in Germany than here. Again, the US just "gives the licenses away."

work4bike

That's my major concern is if we build up "cycling infrastructure" too much then it would be real easy to start a push to get bikes off the roads; so many motorists already don't think we belong on the roads. I don't have many problems with motorists here in Florida, but the most common comment I hear is, "Get on the Sidewalk".

We don't have the most "aggressive" cycling advocacy groups here in Florida, at least here in Jax, but I'm ok with that and I'm just happy that they are building more bike lanes (not paths) and we have a good number of "Share the Road" signs here, which I feel is all the support I need. And that's why I'll continue paying for the "Share the Road" specialty licences plates and I will always ride on the roads and do so following all applicable laws.

There are places where cyclists are required to cycle on paths and I've seen this idea thrown around here in the states. That would be awful, it would be akin to forcing us cyclists off the roads.

work4bike

Cycling in France, not only no concrete barriers (except for a couple here and there), but the bike lane just ends and tons of cars just park there; start at ~3:15-minute point in video and you'll see the cyclist in a bike lane, which abruptly disappears after an intersection.

I thought this only happened in America

MikeyMK

No no no, you're all doing it wrong. It's never gonna work if you're using roads for cyclists.

Here's a cycle ride in Milton Keynes...

raria

Is that your video? If not you have no idea where he was riding.

As someone who lives in France, let me re assure you there are many guarded Lanes. Many.

work4bike

No, it's not my video. This is definitely in Europe, the scooters are proof of that

Look at the 4:30 to 5:30-minute point in the video, that's just crazy...

Can you quantify many, many...?

work4bike

BTW, the 7-minute point of the video is also kind of interesting....

Stadjer

The idea in the Netherlands and I assume in most of Europe about infrastructure is the seperation on speed rather than on vehicle type. Therefore a cycling lane is not really cycling infrastructure, but car serving infrastructure. It allows cars to speed up more because they are seperated from slower traffic, the barriers/elevations are there where the maximum speed for cars is higher. Appearantly American drivers don't need car serving infrastructure to speed up, so it's not there.


It's getting complicated right now because of the infrastructure's success and attraction. The tiny cars are legally mopeds of the slow class. One of the reasons Amsterdam is such a cycling city is because parking is very expensive and the waiting list for a inhabitants parking permit is often more than 7 years. There are exceptions for the disabled, but these tiny cars still help a lot of people that aren't able to cycle to get around, and they can be parked on the sidewalk.

Another issue is that the mopeds are particularly popular among young men, who believe cycling isn't cool. They often have an immigrant background, they might not have assimilated well when it comes to cycling, they do when it comes to the very old tradition of souping up mopeds. I don't think I've ever been or seen a moped that couldn't go faster than 25 kph, and I can often smell they are souped up. There's just too much potential power in it, a good soup up job will take a moped over 60 kph and 100 kph isn't out of reach either. So if the city would crack down on that they would target a specific group of citizens and their transportation. Cities also want the mopeds to become electric, and giving them certainty and a good deal will certainly help people purchase one. On top of that there are the elderly on their E-bikes causing lots of accidents, mostly hurting only themselves bad, but their speed doesn't match their reflexes anymore. But E-bikes help to decrease car use.

So city councils and Amsterdam's in particular have a lot to adress at the same time with conflicting interests and policies for the city and other authorities itself. In my view they should look beyond the infrastructure to it's reason, seperation on speed, and protect the slower cyclists. Because if it gets too dangerous for small children, the cycling and the cycling safety in 10 and 20 years is threatened.

Maelochs

Tons of stuff in there.

Even the fattest American could ride 1.5 miles in a day .... half a mile to work and back, a quarter mile to the store and back. They wouldn’t but it would be possible.

If all that was on what seemed to be safe bike paths, .... Some folks might try it (but only with e-bikes. )

I am lucky to live a five-mile round trip from the grocery store, 13 miles round-trip to the hardware and office-supply store—all of it on road shared with traffic of every variety, not much designated bike-lane mileage. I know seasoned riders who get very upset if part of a route includes “normal” roads, where there is a little shoulder, often filled with debris, and cars are passing at 45 mph minimum. I cannot figure why.

Distance is the huge obstacle to bike use. For “cyclists” who see riding as pleasure and commuting by bike as the best part of the working day, no problem. But for people who want to use bikes as Transport, not recreation .... they find they need to be athletes, and daredevils, and cope with blazing heat, freezing cold, pouring rain, piled snow ,... and idiots in cars just like they were yesterday and are going to be tomorrow because riding a bike sucks!

It is not even financially feasible to widen every road by an extra eight feet to put bike lanes on each side. That property belongs to someone who doesn’t want to give it up, and if the government seizes it, then the court cases start, and people want their property taxes lowered .... and for folks whose lawns are only 20 feet deep to begin with ...

Plus there is maintenance. If water washes out the dirt under the edge of the bike lane, or washes dirt onto it ... no one cares. Then riders have to make sudden lurches into traffic because the lane is blocked, and drivers complain, and no more bike lanes are built.

And not many people live close to work outside of cities (or even within cities.) Segregated residential and commercial zoning means most people live much closer to shopping malls than offices or factories ... so only bag-boys and cashiers can ride to work.

Again, maintenance. The city would need special equipment and more people to clear the bike lanes ... or would likely say, ‘The volume of winter riders doesn’t warrant the extra expenditure.” So ... you have bike lanes and are prevented from riding a bike half the year whereas before you rode year-round.

Also, drainage. It’s not like the city could just put up some forms, pour some concrete, and be done with it.

If the bike barriers caused water to collect on the road surface, drivers would be more dangerous, and if water pooled in the bike lanes ... well, we all love riding though two-inch puddles where we can’t see the bottom, right?
My big worry. Think about where an 18-inch tall barrier would hit---just low enough to maybe pitch you over the barrier into traffic—with the bike hung up on top of the barrier so you couldn’t even roll clear.

I do Not like riding in confined spaces. I cannot go fast because if something blocks the lane I have only brakes to avoid it ... I cannot steer around. I can hop a low curb, and I have (not happily) taken my chances with riding off the inside of the road, where I have no idea what might be there ... but it beats getting hit by a car or hitting an obstacle which might pitch me into a car.

If I am riding down a narrow walled lane, I have to go slowly if for no other reason than that I cannot trust other riders.

Which leads me to ....
A “bike path” if it were designed and policed like a road for cars, would be okay—three wide lanes each way, slow traffic keep right. A person doing a 15-mile commute (see above) doesn’t want to take two hours to do it ... people need to get to work and back home from work and do other stuff.

If I am not averaging 15 mph, a bike is not an efficient transport mode. When I averaged 40-50 miles per day (home to work, work to classes, classes to store, store to friends, friends to home) I needed to go as fast as possible because the day is only so long.

If I am on a “Mixed-up user path” where the users cannot decide if they want to do pirouettes on their rollerblades, eyes closed and ear buds blasting, right in the middle of the road way, or walk four dogs on 12-foot leashes which effectively block the entire path, or ride three abreast on trikes while chatting at high volume because they didn’t turn on their hearing aids and are oblivious to others, or whatever .... they have Every Right to be there and to do that ... but it is no longer a Transport route, it is now a recreational area.

So ... again, in the U.S. the bike is not considered a mode of transport.

oldspokes

Here's what they call a bike lane around here, the lane starts and stops along the way. It runs down the one side of a 5 lane highway mysteriously starting and ending without warning.
They painted stick figure bikes and arrows along the shoulder so they could collect some grant money I suppose.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.4269...7i13312!8i6656

A few other towns cut paths through the woods that don't really go anywhere, some are paved but they're not patrolled and a few are off the beaten path quite a ways for a long distance. Not the safest place to ride after dark to say the least. (nor are the above 'bike' lanes)

SHBR

China has more walls, fences, and barriers than you can shake a stick at.

They protect the motor vehicle traffic from cyclists. Not vice versa.

Also, this means there is less road available for emergency maneuvers, so I'm not convinced its safer for cyclists.