Very much enjoying this exchange of viewpoints thunder & walt. SO much more interesting than "what color helmet should I buy, pro-kit or plain kit" themed threads!

Regardless of what caused Boonens vector during the sprint in question, I feel he is one of the classiest riders in the peleton. Him, Basso, Levi and DiLuca all are at the top of my list.

does anyone have Overcoming or the the 2004 footage handy, stage 2? another opinion would be benficial.

Boonen is a classy rider, and a brilliant sprinter. I don't think sprinters look behind them to make sure a line is clear. they just go. Sprinting by its nature is dangerous.

Just imagine if Boonen manages to devlop all facets of his armoury. His kick, his strenght and one day ability, his tt, and his climbing.

He is 25, I wonder how fast Coppolini was at 25 and how fast was re Lione when his power peaked, presumably at 29/30.

I think Cipo had the edge on Pettachi at both their respective peaks, thought one can argue this year might become Petacchi's peak. Though with his weight loss, I would ascertain his power dropping off marginally, and I think his peak was in 2003 where he was imperious and won sprints without his train on some stages (not all) in the tour. He has never shown that ability before or after. Albeit after then, he has not had the opportunity much to show what he can do because his team is usually leading him out.

2004 he struggled though when his train was not strong enough versus 21 other teams.

Petacchi's palmares was almost non-existent in terms on wins prior to him being 28/29. He first had shown some potential in the sprint in the 2001 Vuelta. Up unitl then he was an also ran in the big bunch sprints. Boonen is dominating 5 years before then. I wonder what curve he has. You cannot doubt that there must be some latent development.

Nope - and I'd love to see something better than the fuzzy little clip that's out on the web. I can't even see riders down on it until they cut to a shot of them picking themselves up after Liggett heaps huge praise on Robbie for winning amidst the chaos. Got a link? Can you excerpt a snippet? I expect it will be just as "conclusive" as replays ad-nauseum of "the Music City Miracle", but I'm game to take a look. An ignorant man's perspective might be what is needed here - and for that, I'm over-qualified.

All MSR 05 showed was that Boonen had really poor positioning, what else could you prove from that? That whole arguement at best is specious. Maybe we saw differant races? Maybe you saw the directors cut complete with hyperbole.

But seriously, my take after viewing the footage from this stage in Overcoming, is that it looks like Boonen has already chosen to make a rather dramatic line change (seems a skill obtained only by the leaders of Quickstep ) before he starts worrying about his mechanical. Ok its a matter of seconds but thats still the way it looks to me.

It might be getting harder to believe everything Boonens says these days. Not trying to hang him out to dry, i enjoy watching him race but after reading his post race comments about this years MSR, he seems to be putting together quite an extensive list of excuses. Cant ever seem to get in his 11, mechanicals, holding back in the sprint, then something that should be more worrying, refering to himself in the 3rd person more. All the usual sprinters talk really, cept somse other sprinters arent afforded the same benefit of the doubt.

What, you come over here to cover for your boy thunder? Gonna start pushing and shoving everyone around that doesn't agree with you too?

You think this is really bad positioning?

https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...ano-sanremo-43

So then Baden had really bad positioning at the Giro next to Bettini, cause Boonen and Baden are in virtually identical situations. The only difference was that Boonen wasn't stupid enough to ride into the barriers like your boy Baden. You think McEwen wouldn't have made it through that hole that Boonen's holding back from? The fact is Boonen is not that pushy kind of rider and his body of work up to this time does not support your assertion that he was switching sides of the road in the 2004 TDF Stage 2. Look at this photo:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/tour04.ph.../stage2/CADUTA

Kirsipuu had swung way wide of Boonen while Boonen's move had ended when he got his bike back under control. If that was McEwen instead of Boonen, his body of work would suggest reckless riding; ask Breschel.

But Boonen doesn't intentionally ride like that in a sprint.

"thunder" was suggesting that Boonen was being shown some type of favoritism when compared to Davis. My point is there is no evidence to suggest this; in fact the mechanical is ample evidence to counter any specious argument of reckless riding or favoritism. You don't know if Boonen looked down the first or the second or the third time his drivetrain acted up. The judges decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. The other riders gave Boonen the benefit of the doubt. The only people indicting Boonen are a couple of pasty white Aussie internet jockeys who are pissed their boy Davis didn't get his. Your accusation just sounds like sour grapes.

have a look at the footage of the stage. Don't compare it to his "ouevre". what cr@p, who cares about perception and previous form. Judge it on its merits on the day. If you think Boonen shifted to get a better leadout on the left *our right of screen, and he caused Kirsipuu to change his line, which caused the crash, plus he was under full control of his bike, then he must be guilty.

Davis was guilty. He should have been relegated. He made a dramatic move and went for a hole. I would expect him to jump for that hole 100% of the time. I would expect any sprinter worth his salt to go for the line Davis chose. unfortunately he caused a crash and it was dangerous sprinting. Sprinting is by its nature very dangerous.

Boonen had a hole to jump to in 2005 MSR, but waited and it closed. It was small, and too small before the link and photo you posted, but Mcewen or Cooke could have made that hole before it closed, the thing is, Mcewen and Cooke could not have possibly won if they went then because they do not have the strenght. Boonen does not have the skill or handling like Cooke and Mcewen but he has the speed and strength to possibly win if he got through before the hole close. I don't think he would have won last year tho, Petacchi was too strong, however he could have pushed Hushovd for third and potentially taken Hondo.

sounds remarkably like an epithet in that context Walt. One might allege a case of hypocrisy here mate.

I don't know about the validity of the drivetrain mech prior to the attempt sprint. Why would he get out of the sadle and stomp if it was defective prior and he was aware. Also, if it was overly defective just how did he move up throuhg the peloton to get in the top ten where he had the opportunity to sprint for the podium. He needed to pass many riders and put increased power through the bb before then. But, the hughe increas in power would come with the first kick out of the saddle. That is when the potential for damge would be, right there. I concede it may have been inefficient or faulty prior to the sprint, I am just putting forward logical assumptions without knowing first hand.

I am sure there was a mechanical. His body language can't be questioned, he is not putting that on. But he might have still finished higher had he not soft pedalled in. It also could have been dangerous to stomp in, even in the saddle.

I do not know what I said, I think it was in relation to Mcewen's dq and the anomalies in race juries rulings. I have yet to see any evidence the race jury were even referred the video from stage 2 2004. They may not have even made a decision.

I think this was much worse than Mcewen's and Davis' cases, and I was pointing out the discrepancies I believe exist. You can, and obviously do disagree. I am attempting to enlgihten you.

I think the jury were expedient and had some pressure to dq Mcewen because of the crash. I think it is more complicated than one person at fault.

I think Boonen had complete control of his line and was 100% at fault. I think Davis had complete control of his line and was 100% at fault. I think Mcewen and Breschel both contributed, and no one crossed lines. It was very similar to the 2003 Champs Elysees sprint.

And you know this because Boonen seems like a nice guy and would never take an unsafe line..?
At least you substantiate this by quoting Boonen admit mechanicals.

Pot meet kettle, jeez just when I thought you guys made up. What happened, no mussels for lunch?

FWIW, I like Boonen cause at least he's wining races, Thors green jersey win last year was boring.

You must be a sensitive 90's kinda guy who can dish it out but can't take it.

Like I said, The judges decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. The other riders gave Boonen the benefit of the doubt. The only people indicting Boonen are a couple of pasty white Aussie internet jockeys who are pissed their boy Davis didn't get his. Your accusation just sounds like sour grapes.

Walter, Walter, Walter, three times over, I won't repeat myself again. I said words to the effect of, you expose yourself to allegations of hypocrisy.

Since when did I say you were a coward for calling someone names over the net. Gees, that is a funny one. I was subtlely reminding your fine directuer sportive self, that you may have made a previously principled stand on calling one names over the net, and you were about to violate said stance.

This was a mirror Walt. I could not care less if you call me pasty, I am more albino than pasty, but Yoeki has fine olive skin the shade the Moors would be envious of. Internet jockey, well well well, I think you undersell us, I think we should atleast get a promotion to cowboy status for this thread alone.

Don't worry, this thread will preclude you from ever reaching made man status in the Belgian mafia, when one speaks of Belgian hardmen, in the same breath they will be speaking of Walter Godefroot and his Pele style erectile dysfunction. Viagra does not make a Belgian hardman Walter.

My, what a tender and sensitive description of Yoeki. Sounds like you can't quit him, eh? Now I understand why you want to be cowboys,(not that there's anything wrong with that ). Please post a pic of the two of you in your chaps and spurs twirling your six shooters.

I'll leave you two to spoon. Bye now.

is that the best you can do Walter?

I really admire Nicki Sørensen for team CSC. After watching the video "Victory of Pain", he really showed what being a "team member" is all about after dropping back from a break to gap Tyler to the break in stage 16 (I believe it was 16). A true domestique

and in Overcoming the expressiion on his face and Jens when they are pushing the pace in one of the early stages of the tour is priceless.

I think those stages were traversing Belgium and they were catching out the little Spaniards and the Euskadi boys in the cross winds and cobbles.

Classic.