An EBB may be the way to go on a cargo bike for strength reasons, but you put disc mounts on a bike with horizontal dropouts - have a look at the Surly frames.

Nice project... I look forward to reading more about it.

Ladies and gentlemen...

Here's a short video of the CETMA cargo bike in action.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1KblF46ANc



Hang on to your socks!!

^^^Love the curb jump!

Thanks!

Nice Cargo Bike, congratulation on the design. Just wondering how much this baby is retailing for?

Prices are on his website. Currently $1850 for a frame set and $2900 for a complete bike...plus shipping.

Aaron

Cool video!

I have a friend in Eugene that knows Lane from CETMA. She heard the CETMA bike is being killed by CAT, who is suing Lane for violating a noncompete contract.

Can anyone confirm this! Say it isn't so!

What is CAT?

The Center for Appropriate Transport

If you want a field test, let me ride it for awhile ;-) The only bike I haven't broken to bits is a reinforced Kona Hoss.

Yes, it's true, Scroll. Almost.

CAT, The Center for Appropriate Transport, is threatening to sue me for violating a non-compete contract I signed when I worked there. The extremely broad (my opinion) contract states (paraphrased):

"For two years after, employee shall not compete with CAT, either directly or indirectly, thought(sp?) employment, or on a consulting or advisory basis, or in many(sp?) other manner, for any entity which provides products, processes or services that are similar to or which compete in the marketplace with CAT's products, processes or services, within the geographic area in which CAT's products, processes or services are sold, including not less than all of the state of Oregon..."


A letter from their attorney states:

"...you are acting in a manner that is immoral and unethical, and that is a violation of CAT's rights."


So despite the fact that I haven't used any of their trade secrets, design ideas, or clients, and NEVER designed or built their bikes during my brief employment there (I was a part-time bookkeeper and one-day rider for their courier service), and waited a full year before producing my cargo bike, CAT is demanding that I either:

A. Stop violating the agreement until my contract expires (late December 2009) and pay a settlement for any bikes I may have sold.

Or...

B. Pay them $10,000 to be released of the contract.



I went to talk to the director at CAT and asked if we could please talk things out, come to an arrangement, or compromise somehow. He accused me of acting unethically. I said I disagreed and at that point he seemed to become very upset and told me "to walk", which I found sort of ironic (I think "ride" would've been more transport "appropriate". Oh well). He stood up, I stood up, and he shooed me out the door. Later, I sent him an email which said:

"Let's talk for real. Calmly, civilly, and with mutual respect. I am willing to meet with you anywhere at any time. I'm eager to listen to your point of view, and hear what you have to say. Let's work out our differences in some way, whether it be an arrangement or compromise. We can manage this conflict productively. We're only two people. It can be easy. A LOT of time, energy, and money to be spared by both of us if we can negotiate something. This is an attempt to communicate with you. Please feel welcome to respond to this email, call me at 541-515-3936, or come to my home anytime. I live at 2260 Kincaid St.

Sincerely,
Lane"

A few days later he wrote back, saying my email was appreciated, and negotiating differences beats the alternatives, and I'd be expecting a letter from his attorney (still, no offer to simply sit at a table together and talk).

I received an email from the lawyer last week, and that's when the demand for money was made.

In MY OPINION, CAT's actions demonstrate the exact opposite of what its legacy and mission statement claim to stand for. I believe CAT is misusing the nature of this contract as a convenient tool to suppress and restrict normal and ethical competition.

So now the ball is in my court. I'm very interested in hearing everyone's opinion regarding this situation, as well as legal advice, personal experiences, etc...



Obviously, the web is chock-full of info regarding this type of contract. Here's some basic info:
Wikipedia-Non-compete agreement
From the Labor Law Center

So I’m a bit confused??

The CENTER FOR APPROPRIATE TRANSPORT (CAT) is a non-profit organization committed to community involvement in manufacturing, using, and advocating sustainable modes of transportation. The first organization of its kind, the Center was founded in Eugene, Oregon in the fall of 1992. Since that time we have established a number of projects under one roof designed to further this mission. (from CAT’s website)

It seems to me that competing with CAT, would be to try and sell their customers SUV’s! CETMA is part of the community and is involved with manufacturing, using, and advocating sustainable modes of transportation… Sounds IN LINE with CAT to me!!!! Seems silly for CAT to try and stop the very thing their Non-Profit mission is trying to promote! It also appalls me, that they would try and profit from it by asking for a cash settlement! I thought they were a non-profit anyways???

Very confusing???

CAT launches apprenticeship program

The primary instructor, Jan VanderTuin, has a broad background in cargo vehicles. In the early 80’s he traveled throughout Western Europe researching the subject. He put together an extensive collection of information from around the world and became convinced that cargo bikes would do well in the USA. Since 1982, Jan has designed over a hundred unique vehicles for fun, for the alter-abled, and for cargo needs. He disagrees with the shipping of bikes around the world and has taught frame building classes to hundreds of students in Eugene. His favorite quote: “give a person a fish and they eat for a day. Teach a person to fish and you feed them for a lifetime.”

(taken from CAT's website)

From what I understand, Lane from CETMA never even worked in the shop on building bikes. I'm not so sure I'd want to pay $5000 for a course at CAT to learn framebuilding only to be sued by them for building something that also falls into the "LONG JOHN" catagory of bikes, not something CAT even developed! Sounds to me like Jan needs to re-read his favorite quote!!!

I would spend the $150 and talk to a lawyer. It is possible that if you did not work in the shop or were not involved to the point of being able to take advantage of insider info, that this contract may not apply to you. I won't be buying anything from CAT with an attitude like that.

Here is a quick test to see if you are, in fact, competing with CAT:

1. Do you respond to Emails?
2. Do you respond to telephone calls?
3. Do you deliver product to your customers in less than a year's time, provided that they have paid you for it?
4. Do you make an effort to stay on good terms with other individuals and companies in the bicycle industry, including other builders, retail shops, distributors and riders?

If you answer "Yes" to two or more of these questions, you are really not in CAT's league at all, and should not be considered to be competing with them.

The worst part to me is that CAT exists to promote appropriate transportation but it seems that if it isn't their transportation it is inappropriate. I've been a long time fan of what CAT stands for but this has seriously shaken any loyalty they may have built over the years. CETMA cargo is a different bike entirely and I just don't understand this move on CAT's part, especially as a not-for-profit. I'd hate to see either of these company's affected by this but I know where my allegiance lies.

Howdy, Val! Adding your link to the CETMAcargo site.

Why, thanks, Lane - and rest assured that you have my best wishes and support (if such is possible) in your battle with this ....well, not a dragon...Montgomery Burns comes to mind, but the money isn't there....Dog in the Manger is the best metaphor I can come up with at this point. Do you suppose Jan knows about the internets?

lane this would be awesome with track dropouts, nice low gear, fixie long john, or maybe when sturney archer comes out w/ that fixed gear hub

The one time I bought anything from CAT they responded to my e-mails and telephone calls and delivered the product in good time.

After reviewing the current thinking regarding the use of Non Compete
Agreements, both in the States and overseas, it is apparent that they
are on the way out, except in specific situations. At the founding of
CAT in 1992, non compete agreements were standard procedure. Therefore,
we included it in our employment process. Lane Kagay signed such a 2
year agreement in 2007. However, after examining the pros and cons of
these agreements, we are withdrawing the non-compete clause from our
employee contracts and releasing Lane Kagay from the Non Compete
Agreement that he signed.

CAT is known as a teaching/learning center, both for employees, students
and the public at large. Many former employees (and students) have gone
on to work in the bicycle industry and in bicycle advocacy. We further
pedal power through our public programs, including youth education, a
workspace rental area, repair classes, framebuilding classes, and our
new Cargo Framebuilding Apprenticeship Program. CAT is honored to have
inspired so many people to follow their human powered passions. We are
proud of that legacy.

We believe in the uniqueness and strength of our original mission, which
is "community involvement in manufacturing, using, and advocating
sustainable modes of transportation". After nearly 20 years of hard work
we are glad to see the extraordinary growth of human powered transport
throughout Oregon and around the States.

For more information about CAT, please visit catoregon.org

Way to go CAT! You guys do a great thing for our community and I'm glad we can all put this behind us! If it weren't 10am I'd lift a glass to you but I'll settle with internet thanks! Cheers

Kudos to you Jan and CAT!

I’m happy to see the change of heart. A wise man once told me, "the truest form of flattery, is to have someone copy you!" You must feel quite proud that you have influenced so many in the US to consider using something other than a car to move things around! I would imagine this experience is much like watching a child grow up and move out on their own. You wish you could control the choices they make, but all you can do is hope that you gave them the basics to make good choices on their own. You’ve planted a seed in all that have crossed your path, no one that knows you, now limits their thinking as to what can be accomplished with a bicycle! It has grown into something that is capable of influencing more people than any one man can influence, and a legacy any man could be proud of being at the roots of.

Although this new CETMA cargo bike has little resemblance to your Long Haul, you can take pride that some little piece of you is in it thanks to the influence you had on Lane, myself, and all who would now consider buying such a bike in the US. Thank you for all you have done to forward the thinking of us all Jan!


Sincerely,

Mike Gould (former CAT employee and volunteer, current designer and builder of the CETMA cargo bike.)

Nice to see everything worked out. Hopefully lessons learned on both sides. If not, find it and use it going forward.