i don't know if it is just the photos or the paint job, but that mercian looks
weird

jeff

[QUOTE=trespasser]
And that photo of mercian doesn't do any justice.
QUOTE]

Let me see if I can sum this up a little.

TIG welding involves precise mitering and the actual melting and welding of the tube interfaces, so that steel flows into steel.
The process relies on the air hardening qualities of modern steel tubing to further strengthen the joined places.

Fillet brazing involves precise mitering and the introduction by melting of a different metal, probably a brass alloy, that essentially glues the joined surfaces together with the brazing metal; and, this process lends itself to the most smoothly aesthetic finish, given sufficient labor and skill.
The effects of heat on the tubing with this process remain unclear to me.

Lugs involve the use of premanufactured cast joints into which the fabricator inserts mitered tubes and then introduces melted silver alloy into the lugged joints as metal glue, with the intent of not raising the temperature of the tubing to a critical, property-changing temperature.

Several fabricators of lugged frames describe their frames as no heavier than a TIG welded frame of comparable strength.

In terms of strength, dependability, weight and cost I do not have a clear picture of how fillet-brazed frames compare to TIG-welded and lugged frames.

-----

The above said, I found the Mercian site very interesting.

http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_vigorelli.asp

I can get a custom Mercian lugged steel track frame, color of my choice, delivered to my front door in a very reasonable time (four days shipping) for $916.65 USD, total cost.
We live on a tiny planet, and it gets tinier every day.

Ken,

I'm curious what - in your mind - differentiates the Mercian Vigorelli from a Bob Jackson Vigorelli? They look almost identical to my eyes, but the Bob Jackson is considerably less expensive - 375GBP for the Mercian vs 295GBP for the Jackson. If you went with the Jackson, you could add some nice chromed seat and chain stays (if you're a fan of that sort of thing...) and still have it be a few pounds less expensive than the Mercian. I'm not trying to sway your choice at all, I'm just curious as to what's making you lean towards that particular Mercian frame.

m.

EDIT: Here's the link to the Bob Jackson Vigorelli.

My opinion:

Fillet Brazed - Don Walker makes great frames with amazing brazing and is on the forum to help you and answer any questions.

Lugged - Jonny Cycle makes great frames with a really nice selection lugs and is on the forum to answer any questions.

By buying from these guys you would also be buying from and helping small, American businesses. Both are stand-up guys.

Mcatano wrote:

"...what - in your mind - differentiates the Mercian Vigorelli from a Bob Jackson Vigorelli?"

Interestingly, as I wrote about the Mercian I had the Bob Jackson in mind, as well.
I suppose the Mercian stood out a little because of the difference in the two web sites (Jackson and Mercian): Mercian offered any color on demand and custom dimensions for the same price as "off the peg" prices; additionally, Mercian made it very easy to select international shipping methods, determine the costs, and compute the rate of currency exchange.
Given the friendly tone of the Bob Jackson site, I imagine if I wrote to them they would offer all the same services at comparable prices.
The Mercian site just made it all so easy, and I like that photo of the Mercian Vigorelli.

By the way, to what does the "Vigorelli" part of the name refer?
A famous rider or maker?

As for buying American, I don't think it does America any favors to buy on the basis of nationality.
I like the American makers because of their calling to make beautiful bikes, and this calling would persuade me to buy one of their bikes more than would their nationality.

As an earlier hobby, which I no longer actively pursue, I collected custom and hand-made knives as art objects.
I especially appreciated, and still do appreciate the work of two American makers and one Danish maker.

The Danish maker, Palle Thorndahl, fabricated a knife for my son, which I presented to Kristopher as a knife of passage.
Palle collected the handle materials, reindeer antler and a type of wood called Masurburch, while backpacking north of the Artic Circle.
The blade came from the hammer and anvil of a man named Bjorn Rasmussen, whom Palle describes as a giant who lives deep in the dark forest, and who still makes steel the old way, one blade at a time.
This knife didn't cost as much as one might assume ($275 USD), because, Palle has a calling, and he does not want price to come between his knives and their users.

In the best of all possible worlds I would like a frame made by one man, who has a calling, and who can make a living and find satisfaction fabricating and selling me a simple, honest steel frame and fork for under $1200.
If he lives in America, or Oregon, or even my own home town, Bend, and can do it for $1000, how much sweeter.
Could life get any better than that? :)

i saw one of those Jonny Cycles frames in person for the first time over the weekend.

A girl in Brooklyn rides a neon green track frame... quite awesome.

Post Script:

I went back to the Bob Jackson site and found all the same friendly features that I liked about the Mercian site.
How nice.

Of all the American makers whose sites I have now visited, and who might fit my budget, Jonny Cycle really appeals to me.
Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

*drool* if you get a Jonny, I demand pictures.

i think it is (or was) a velodrome in italy. google threw up a few interesting links, but they were all italian.

[edit]according to a person on FGG, it was a 'drome in Milan.[edit]

When my friend Jenny gets her Jonny Cycle done, I'll be posting photos.

I got a little deeper into the Jonny Cycle site and discovered Jon Kendziera went to school (Platteville, WI) just a few miles from where I spent a pleasantly memorable portion of my childhood years (Cuba City, WI).
I guess I'd better send him an e-mail.

not to muddy things up any further, but there is a thread on the classic rendezvous mailing list of california builders, past and present: http://search.bikelist.org/query.asp...MsgDate%5Ba%5D
(this one has most of the list: http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.as...10505.0740.eml )

Poetic. And it made me think of one framebuilder in particular: www.yamaguchibike.com
Ken, for your 60th birthday, why not arrange to take 2 weeks off from your life and go to the Rocky Mountains and build your own lugged frame under the tutelage of Yamaguchi? Then you would have a classic steel frame like no other, and you would know the maker intimately for the rest of your days.

What a great idea from shiftless.

I went to the site:

http://www.yamaguchibike.com/school/framebuilding.htm

It costs $1850.
The site does not come right out and say the student can keep the frame and fork he makes, but I would hope so.

How absolutely cool.

Or, I could have it done right by Jonny Cycles.

Let me see... cool...done right...cool...done right. :)

But then, I don't see myself as that incompetent and so, perhaps under the tutelage of a master frame builder with an established lesson plan and facility I could do it right, myself.

This thread has taken me some places.
Thanks.

from the faq:

"You will leave with a freshly finished unpainted frame to take to the painter of your choice and we can help you with recommendations for decal manufacturers and painters if you need."

then you get to agonize over designing decals and colors ;)

i believe Ceya plans on attending 'bike camp' with mr. yamaguchi. looks like a blast.

This is such a brilliant idea! Ken, you might want to check out United Bicycle Institute as well.....They're in Oregon.

Jim

The United Bicycle Institute sounds very doable.
My wife and I try to get Ashland once a year for a little vacation.
A charming town, with perhaps the best live theater in the nation and great restaurants.
Expensive.
Happily UBI provides a very cost-effective student hostel with air conditioning and kitchen.
A beautiful drive from here to Ashland.

This thread just put me over the edge and got me to order a Bob Jackson. Damn all of you!!!

There was a post on the FGG forum a while ago about the Yamaguchi school... something to the effect that Mr. Yamaguchi was in very poor health and was shutting things down. Any word if this was true or not?

m.

Well I just received a new Yamaguchi frame in March, so if he's in poor health, he's not taking it sitting down.

No idea if the school is still going on, but he still makes frames. If you're in the market for fillet brazing, a Yamaguchi track frame is never a bad choice. His pursuit frame is the sexiest one around imo.