New site.... Lugs and Jugs... or should it be the other way around. In the words of Homer... mmmmm, luuuuugs...

Mmmm... I was so close to getting arrowpoint lugs on my custom Bob Jackson that's being built but at the last minute I opted for fillet brazing. I'd like to recommend Jackson as an option as well. Don't know how it works out for you in the US but they have been great to work with and accomodated everything I wanted for what is still a ridiculously reasonable price. Their off-the-peg frames are a great deal too and there are still possibilities for some light customisation.

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/9416/dscf12891zg.jpg

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/773/dscf12860ou.jpg

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/5558/dscf12876jh.jpg

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/4002/dscf12889sm.jpg

these pictures just came through tonight from japan - they're not great, but i'm certainly drooling, cos i think the frame will be a spectacular ride. can't get too much more custom than having your name engraved in the seat cluster!

i peeped some images of ceya's RAP as well - he's got a gorgeous midnight blue / almost black paint job. looks spectacular.

This is definitely a drool thread. Yeah, I have had a Kirk road frame, and it was absolutely gorgeous. While Sacha at Vanilla does all kinds of innovative stuff and has a really high bling factor, Dave Kirk just does fabulous classic frames -- think of Richard Sachs or any major frame of the 70's or 80's and you've got Dave Kirk, just he does them as well or better. Dave used to do the steel frame building for Serotta.

As for Spectrum, their classic look is fabulous and they have an attention to personal fitting and detail work on their steel frames in particular that's really amazing. If you want cable runs internal to your frame tubes, or custom rack mounts and racks, or extra mounts for lights or whatever, Spectrum is the place to go. Yet they also make probably the nicest pure track steel frames available -- they've done it for years and have it dialed in perfectly. Spectrum and Dave Kirk have two of the nicest frames on the market (you could add Richard Sachs, but that's a 3-year wait), but their styles are quite different. It's just a matter of taste. Can't recommend either one highly enough. And you'll learn more than you ever thought possible about what a frame is really about.

Ok, I've entered Phase I negotiations (I believe Phase II involves convincing the wife that this is really a good idea).

After writing a very lengthy email explaining all what I want and how I plan to use it, Mike basically mailed me back and said, hey, good to hear from you, sounds like you want a Light Roadster.

All well and good except it turns out that that damn Mike is the same size as yours truly. Not only that, but he's just today put his used LR up for sale.

I'm not sure whether I should move forward with a brand new frame or buy his used complete. Here's the breakdown:

Pros:

• It comes with better cranks than I have right now on my track bike.
• It has better wheels than I have right now (though only marginally).
• Honjo fenders!
• Chris King HS (though I have a Campy Record right now, but I could sell one)
• Dropping the saddle and pedals would drop $100 off my pricetag.
• It comes with the long reach brake I would need.
• D-rack, baby!
• I would have lots of parts to sell or put in the parts bin.
• It's only owner is a little old lady who only drives it to church.
• For the same price as I would pay for my custom frameset, I could get a complete bike (minus saddle and pedals) with nice components, sweet fenders, and a rack.

Cons:

• It has a 70mm BB drop. I want something more along the lines of 60mm. Then again, I ride a 60mm drop w/ 170mm cranks and this comes with 165mm cranks.
• I like the fact that I have nice wheels that I built. On the other hand, I could sell his for some cash.
• It's used. Of course this doesn't really mean much but there is something special knowing that I'm the first owner of it.
• The angles aren't as steep as I might like.
• It's not drilled for brakes in the back and the bridge seems to be a little light for doing so. I wanted to be able to go SS for some light SS trail use.
• It's black and I was really looking for a light dusty blue or sage.
• I'd have to pay cash up front instead of a deposit at the start and the rest on completion.

So, what would you do in my place?

A custom bike will be exactly what you want in every respect. That's not what this is, but it might still be a good deal and worth snatching up.

I say go custom. If you're already in the process of it and such, then you might as well get the bike you *really* want, know what I mean? It'll be your bike to your specs.

Since it seems like you're happy with parts, then the used one, while a good deal, might not be the bike you really want.

I would go custom a) having so precise opinion about what I want (angles, dimensions, holes) and b) being able to build the wheels I like as they are major cost item.

if you're asking us to spend your money, i suspect we'll conclude that you should go with a custom frame.

honestly, instead of second-guessing all those minor details, you'll be happy as PIE knowing you got everything you wanted... and you'll love riding it that much more. i think this is the answer you're looking for. :)

I just talked to the wife and got a reluctant go-ahead for either option.

I'm going to ponder for a day or two, maybe make a trip down to check the ride if I think I'm going to go with his frame.

The BB drop may not be significant with the shorter cranks, so I'm not so concerned about that. I've emailed Mike again to ask him if he thinks the bridge could be safely drilled if I wanted to go that route. As for the wheels...well I have a nice Pro Max/Open Pro for the rear, but the front is just a cheapo Shimano loose ball hub on an MA3 that I've actually put a small flat spot in anyhow. His are Phils laced to Campy rims. His angles are a little slacker than I might like, but then I'm not a racer, so it's probabl a-ok.

I could get back the cost of a new powder coat just by selling some of the extra parts I'll have left over.

I'm so confused!

ask yourself is 5mm or 1degree is worth feeling like the great deal is less than perfect.

it could go either way.

Yup, now I'm back on the other side of the fence telling myself that I could get the frameset I want (his also doesn't have the rear rack braze-ons) and one of those swanky racks for just $100 more.

I could build up a new wheel or wheelset down the road. The Honjos are nice, but I'm not really convinced that I want them over the plastic Freddy Fenders I have right now.

Of course I'd lose some money by not selling my Fuji as a complete or by selling off all the parts.

On the other hand, I'd have the frame I want. Other components can always be upgraded, but if you end up with a frame that's not quite what you want, there's usually not much to be done for that...

This is terrible. What I need to do is tell myself that either would be a great ride and I have the luxury of having two great options to choose from. I'm going to ponder a little more and go with whatever I feel like tomorrow morning.

so, as someone who not only peered over the ledge but did indeed jump, i have to say, as much as i'm still waiting, even the process of figuring out what i want has been quite rewarding.

i wonder if, perhaps, some of my usual justifications may help you? perhaps you should try these on for size:
- My coworkers all have $20,000 cars. I aught not feel guilty about spending 10% of that on a fine, fine bike that will be a car-substitute.
- I'm a wage earning adult and am sick of denying myself things under the guise of being poor.
- I'm going to die and it's up to me whether i die poor but having denied myself nothing or wealthy but having passed up opportunities.
- My body is shaped strangely and it's not my fault that bike manufacturers force me to get a custom frame.
- Getting a frame with couplers will pay for itself in how often I will save the $75 checked bike fee... eventually.
- I like pretty shiny things.

terraferma! yes, you've even been on one.

http://www.fancyanimals.net/ss/bikaaa.jpg

Yoinks! I'm doing it. I just sent a mail to Mike tonight. He offered to rebuild the rear triangle on the one he has for sale to be more in line with what I want, but I ultimately decided I'd rather get exactly the frame I want and gucci up the rest as I go along.

Anyhow, I'll be the unfashionable guy on the bike with the long wheelbase. :)

It's cool though, I'm expecting this to be a good all-rounder. Fair weather, foul weather, maybe even some winter weather (need to get inside that dude with some Frame Saver though). It'll be my new camp-mobile, too. It's going to be great, just wait and see.

Maybe when we head down to Holliston on October, it'll be in some stage of completion and we can all look at it and say, "hey, I know the guy who's buying that."

Good for you man. That rocks.

>Anyhow, I'll be the unfashionable guy on the bike with the long wheelbase. :)

You will be pleased.
It will move the wheel from under your center of gravity when climbing, but at the same time it will make you lose less of energy for controling the bike when riding gets rough or road gets very steep.

I love the handling of my 93cm wheelbase fixie, but when I ride my usual route across national park nearby I appreciate how smooth my 106cm wheelbase beater handles a rough 1 mile streach of the route.

Same goes for city riding through the old town with cobblestones and streetcar rails - I can actually go faster there on the beater, because I can see :)

COOL ! Glad to hear you are considering powder coating. Don't skimp on this as you will be disappointed later.

Just remember that the price is a huge deal right now, but, next year you will remember the quality and the ride and you will not care about the price. In other words don't leave anything out now.

Now I have to ride up there when it's done so I can see it in person.

Totally with you and everyone else about the price. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm all about value, but I'm also all about value. If I bought Mike's bike, I could have gotten almost exactly what I wanted. He even offered to rebuild the rear triangle with slightly longer stays for fat tire clearance (it will only fit 28s right now) for my light trail use and a new color for not much more. It was tempting, but I decided I wanted exactly what I wanted.

That means a longer TT than he has a taller BB and all the other little things, even if I don't have as nice of a set of wheels or crinkly silver Honjos. I did spoil myself a bit and spec it out with one of his 57 racks because they look pretty sharp.

In no time it will be money under the bridge and spent on something of durable value rather than just squandered, hard to argue with that. Plus he's giving me the current pricing rather than the flat $1400 any-frame-any-color he's moving to on Saturday.

The wife doesn't get it, but she's trying to be as understanding as she can. It's not clear whether I'll still be in Boston by the time it's done. Mike's currently quoting a 6 month lead, but he said he may try to push mine out sooner than that. Depending on where I go, it may or may not be done in time. It's all very complicated.

Listen to what he says. I'm in the works of building mine. It's taking time, and I've got a lot of waiting to do. But, it's mine, and it will be what I want it to be. Another option, non lugged, Thylacine. He did a pretty good job of putting my wants to steel and paint. When I get wheels under it, I'll post pictures.

Awesome !!! Have a link or a photo of something similar to what you are ordering?

No! And thankfully so. I'd hate to be spending $1100+ on something I could point to and say, "just like that."

Still, it's a light roadster frame, all hooked up with all the braze-ons, eyelets, and bosses I can carry. Asher's ride is more or less what I'm getting, only in a sage/mint green.

http://beauty.nagog.smasher.net:81/a...4903.sized.jpg
http://beauty.nagog.smasher.net:81/a...4821.sized.jpg

VERY NICE ! I like that fork a lot!

Are you getting a fork ~ "SOMEWHAT SIMILAR" ~ :D to that ?

You going with a threaded fork?

Of course he is going with threaded!


I mean you are going with threaded right?! Please say you are going with threaded.


Milo

i'm going up to get sized for my circle a next week. so far the process has been tons of fun. it's an amazing experience purchasing a bike by deciding what you want and then telling someone and it happening rather than deciding what you want and then searching near and far and eventually settling on something similar to what you want but not exactly what you had in mind. i'm not even all the way through the decision making but i feel like a kid having the best birthday ever...

so far we've worked out:

threaded fork
drilled for front brake
no cage bosses or rack mounts
fully lugged
Dedacciai Zerouno tubing (3.75-4lb frame vs 3 lb Deda Zero tubing)
Paul dropouts with built in tensors
a slack track geometry...

still struggling with paint choices... oh the freedom is so hard to deal with! but, asside from the whole power assisted thing, i really like the look of this bike:
http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global...eirin-pas1.jpg