Custom?
09-08-05 | 09:20 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Retrogrouch in Training
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,484
Likes: 1
From: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Custom?
Help! I've been on one too (or is that one two) many rides with jrowedc and his pretty pretty Kalavinka. It has me jonesing for a custom of my own pretty badly. Please, talk me down from the ledge. Tell me there's a perfectly fine off-the-peg offering for half the price.
What I want is a track-like frame. I haven't decided if I want true track angles or if I'd like to relax them a little. In theory, I'd prefer a slightly less upright geometry and maybe slightly longer chainstays for better climbing. In practice, my old Fuji has a pretty true track geometry (pretty much the same as the current Track Pro, in fact) and I'm quite happy with it. In any event, I want to keep a tall bottom bracket which many non-track frames don't have.
I want a drilled fork though I'm thinking brakeless bridge out back. I want bottle mounts, clearance for fat tires and fenders if I want, eyelets and braze-ons for a rack should I so desire, as well. I would like to be able to turn this thing into a light tourer if the mood strikes me.
I think good guy Mike Flanigan could hook me up for $1100 (I want a custom color, mang).
Does such a beast exist retail? Am I really just wanting to buy a bike built for me and me alone? Save me, BikeForums!
What I want is a track-like frame. I haven't decided if I want true track angles or if I'd like to relax them a little. In theory, I'd prefer a slightly less upright geometry and maybe slightly longer chainstays for better climbing. In practice, my old Fuji has a pretty true track geometry (pretty much the same as the current Track Pro, in fact) and I'm quite happy with it. In any event, I want to keep a tall bottom bracket which many non-track frames don't have.
I want a drilled fork though I'm thinking brakeless bridge out back. I want bottle mounts, clearance for fat tires and fenders if I want, eyelets and braze-ons for a rack should I so desire, as well. I would like to be able to turn this thing into a light tourer if the mood strikes me.
I think good guy Mike Flanigan could hook me up for $1100 (I want a custom color, mang).
Does such a beast exist retail? Am I really just wanting to buy a bike built for me and me alone? Save me, BikeForums!
09-08-05 | 09:30 AM
#2
I feel your pain BT. Back when that Jonnycycles thread was up, I just about lost my mind and came super close to throwing down a deposit immediately. But somehow, I talked myself out of it and think, in the end, i'm better off for it.
I don't understand why you want all that "stuff" on a bike that's tracky...
I'm just a simple man, but if I were you, I would build up a Surly Crosscheck (or something similar... there's the occasional SMOKING deals on Nashbar brand touring frame... there's a great thread about it by regularguy in the touring forum) and make it fixed. The only thing the crosscheck lacks for your needs is the high BB and track geo.
Then, I would get a straight-up track as all hell custom track frame, smooth as a youngin's backside, sans holes.
Like I said. I feel your pain. The custom-lust is a slippery slope. Mind ye well and be careful
I don't understand why you want all that "stuff" on a bike that's tracky...
I'm just a simple man, but if I were you, I would build up a Surly Crosscheck (or something similar... there's the occasional SMOKING deals on Nashbar brand touring frame... there's a great thread about it by regularguy in the touring forum) and make it fixed. The only thing the crosscheck lacks for your needs is the high BB and track geo.
Then, I would get a straight-up track as all hell custom track frame, smooth as a youngin's backside, sans holes.
Like I said. I feel your pain. The custom-lust is a slippery slope. Mind ye well and be careful
09-08-05 | 09:40 AM
#3
Senior Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 574
Likes: 4
From: NYC
Bikes: Custom DeanUSA El Diente CTI, Rich Adams Track, Johnny Coast Fixed, Argon18 Gallium Pro
Originally Posted by bostontrevor
What I want is a track-like frame. I haven't decided if I want true track angles or if I'd like to relax them a little. In theory, I'd prefer a slightly less upright geometry and maybe slightly longer chainstays for better climbing. In practice, my old Fuji has a pretty true track geometry (pretty much the same as the current Track Pro, in fact) and I'm quite happy with it. In any event, I want to keep a tall bottom bracket which many non-track frames don't have.
I think good guy Mike Flanigan could hook me up for $1100 (I want a custom color, mang).
I think good guy Mike Flanigan could hook me up for $1100 (I want a custom color, mang).
My recommedation is find a frame with 73/74 degree angles. ~41cm chainstay length. ~6.0cm BB drop. And a fork with a 40mm rake.
Many custom builders will have semi-custom frames in various ready to go sizes, with an upcharge for true custom.
DeSalvo : Columbus Zona for $975
Rich Adams : Deda Tres for $800
09-08-05 | 09:58 AM
#4
Thread Starter
Retrogrouch in Training
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,484
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From: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Longer chainstays prevent the front wheel from lifting on in-the-saddle climbs. They also give you a more stable ride at speed.
Those other bikes look nice, but those prices approach what I'd be looking at if I went with an ANT, so it doesn't really help me with my dilemma.
Call me plain jane, but personally I like the look of a bike that's ready for heavy duty. Eyelets and brazeons don't make you go slower and don't make the bike handle differently, so why not have them except for silly aesthetic fetishism?
Those other bikes look nice, but those prices approach what I'd be looking at if I went with an ANT, so it doesn't really help me with my dilemma.
Call me plain jane, but personally I like the look of a bike that's ready for heavy duty. Eyelets and brazeons don't make you go slower and don't make the bike handle differently, so why not have them except for silly aesthetic fetishism?
09-08-05 | 10:28 AM
#5
Senior Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 574
Likes: 4
From: NYC
Bikes: Custom DeanUSA El Diente CTI, Rich Adams Track, Johnny Coast Fixed, Argon18 Gallium Pro
Longer chainstays do not prevent front end wobble during climbs. Proper weight distribution keeps your front wheel glued to the ground. I personally have never encountered front end lift while climbing, regardless of steepness.
If you are a tall rider and use a setback seatpost with your weight on the back wheel and use a short stem (<120mm) and grip the tops of the bars, yes you will do wheelies going up a climb. Just fix your position on the bike.
From Technical Q&A with Lennard Zinn from Inside Triathlon
And stability at speed is dependent on trail and BB drop. The lower the BB drop the more stable the ride. The longer the trail is the more stable the ride.
You may encounter problems with stability, balance and COG if you use a frame with a high BB and then proceed to dump weight on it through racks and bags. Doesn't Rivendell have a write-up on this?
So, what's wrong with the Kogswell Model G then? I assume the low BB and slack seat angle?
If you are a tall rider and use a setback seatpost with your weight on the back wheel and use a short stem (<120mm) and grip the tops of the bars, yes you will do wheelies going up a climb. Just fix your position on the bike.
From Technical Q&A with Lennard Zinn from Inside Triathlon
Big guys on bikes
Dear Lennard,
As the specialist in bicycles for tall people, I wonder if you have any thoughts about how to tame an unruly front end on a 64cm frame?
I am 6 foot 4 and ride a Colnago Master Olympic with a straight steel fork, an ITM Goccia quill. The quill diameter is 22.2mm, length is 120mm with 76 deg rise. When climbing, I like to sit up and ride with my hands on the tops of the bars. When I do, the front end gets squirrelly, as if the bike wants to pull a wheelie. No problems when I am riding on the hooks or in the drops.
I've tried riding with my hands spread wide apart, but the front end still feels "light." What can I do to address this problem?
David
Dear David,
Tall bikes under tall riders have a tendency to feel light on the front end, especially if the top tube is too short. It is a weight distribution problem, and I can explain why it happens more to taller riders. In general, road frames from a given company tend to have the same chainstay length for all sizes of a given model. Furthermore, the seat tube on the bigger frames is not only longer, but it is usually also tilted back at a shallower angle.
This means that your butt is higher and further back over the rear wheel, effectively placing your center of gravity further back relative to the wheels than a shorter rider. Combine this with insufficient reach to the bars for the taller rider relative to the shorter one, and you have a bike that will pull wheelies when you climb holding onto the bar tops.
With this bike, I suggest deeply bending your elbows and lowering your chest when climbing to put more weight on the bars. It's not ideal to be forced to do this, but you actually will work your glutes more as a benefit.
You might also try the free frame fit calculator on my Web site: www.zinncycles.com, to see if you have a relatively short top tube and stem, in which case you could increase your stem length and help it a bit.
Lowering your stem will also help, but that may not be ideal, since tall riders on stock frames generally have relatively more drop to the bars from the saddle than shorter riders.
Lennard
Dear Lennard,
As the specialist in bicycles for tall people, I wonder if you have any thoughts about how to tame an unruly front end on a 64cm frame?
I am 6 foot 4 and ride a Colnago Master Olympic with a straight steel fork, an ITM Goccia quill. The quill diameter is 22.2mm, length is 120mm with 76 deg rise. When climbing, I like to sit up and ride with my hands on the tops of the bars. When I do, the front end gets squirrelly, as if the bike wants to pull a wheelie. No problems when I am riding on the hooks or in the drops.
I've tried riding with my hands spread wide apart, but the front end still feels "light." What can I do to address this problem?
David
Dear David,
Tall bikes under tall riders have a tendency to feel light on the front end, especially if the top tube is too short. It is a weight distribution problem, and I can explain why it happens more to taller riders. In general, road frames from a given company tend to have the same chainstay length for all sizes of a given model. Furthermore, the seat tube on the bigger frames is not only longer, but it is usually also tilted back at a shallower angle.
This means that your butt is higher and further back over the rear wheel, effectively placing your center of gravity further back relative to the wheels than a shorter rider. Combine this with insufficient reach to the bars for the taller rider relative to the shorter one, and you have a bike that will pull wheelies when you climb holding onto the bar tops.
With this bike, I suggest deeply bending your elbows and lowering your chest when climbing to put more weight on the bars. It's not ideal to be forced to do this, but you actually will work your glutes more as a benefit.
You might also try the free frame fit calculator on my Web site: www.zinncycles.com, to see if you have a relatively short top tube and stem, in which case you could increase your stem length and help it a bit.
Lowering your stem will also help, but that may not be ideal, since tall riders on stock frames generally have relatively more drop to the bars from the saddle than shorter riders.
Lennard
You may encounter problems with stability, balance and COG if you use a frame with a high BB and then proceed to dump weight on it through racks and bags. Doesn't Rivendell have a write-up on this?
So, what's wrong with the Kogswell Model G then? I assume the low BB and slack seat angle?
09-08-05 | 10:59 AM
#6
I was about to suggest the Model G as well. Sounds about right - I suppose the low BB as Jose suggested?
I may also throw Bob Jackson out there as well. Their off the peg Vigorelly is about $650 shipped from the UK and the last time I talked to them about two months ago, the wait was about 10 weeks. Not bad and you get choice of paint color, lug pinstriping and decal.
Also: "Fully cast bottom bracket shell, crown & dropouts, also comes with 1 set of bottle fittings, drilled for front brake & takes 19-28mm tyres. Available with mudguard fittings for winter use at no extra cost if required."
https://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/pr...roducts_id=307
I may also throw Bob Jackson out there as well. Their off the peg Vigorelly is about $650 shipped from the UK and the last time I talked to them about two months ago, the wait was about 10 weeks. Not bad and you get choice of paint color, lug pinstriping and decal.
Also: "Fully cast bottom bracket shell, crown & dropouts, also comes with 1 set of bottle fittings, drilled for front brake & takes 19-28mm tyres. Available with mudguard fittings for winter use at no extra cost if required."
https://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/pr...roducts_id=307
09-08-05 | 11:08 AM
#7
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 698
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From: St Paul, MN
09-08-05 | 11:33 AM
#8
Slow in traffic
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
From: South Philly
Bikes: 2002 Bianchi Pista, Cannondale R1000
Originally Posted by Jose R
Rich Adams : Deda Tres for $800
09-08-05 | 11:33 AM
#9
The normal school
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: The hill _ Boston
Bikes: rental
I say get a frame (non custom) and have it painted your custom color. You can even get decals saying "Custom Built for Trevor" and no one except for you and the painter will ever know. After a while you may even fool yourself.
Now if you were rich....Independent Fabrications is a sweet local company offering Titanium...
Now if you were rich....Independent Fabrications is a sweet local company offering Titanium...
09-08-05 | 11:35 AM
#10
spin
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,170
Likes: 0
From: Champaign, IL
Bikes: raleigh m-60, azonic steelhead, schwinn world sport fixed gear
I know this is off topic but what is the point of the curved chain stays on some of the bob jackson models ( https://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/pr...products_id=95 ) ? I like them no matter what the purpose.
09-08-05 | 11:47 AM
#11
Senior Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 574
Likes: 4
From: NYC
Bikes: Custom DeanUSA El Diente CTI, Rich Adams Track, Johnny Coast Fixed, Argon18 Gallium Pro
Curved chain stays are old school stylin' from Hetchins.
See this discussion on the frame builders forum.
Johnny Coast showed me one his showpiece frames in his studio which had those kind of curvy stays. It looked real pretty.
But, from my understanding, they are flexy. Which is ok, if you understand what you are going after in frame design. But, not ok if you want a stiff track frame.
Edit: Also, David Kirk does some nice work with curved seat stays:
See this discussion on the frame builders forum.
Johnny Coast showed me one his showpiece frames in his studio which had those kind of curvy stays. It looked real pretty.
But, from my understanding, they are flexy. Which is ok, if you understand what you are going after in frame design. But, not ok if you want a stiff track frame.
Edit: Also, David Kirk does some nice work with curved seat stays:
09-08-05 | 12:21 PM
#12
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 18,138
Likes: 324
Bikes: 2 many
If you are drowning in a sea of bike lust, please allow me to hand you a 100lb anchor. 
Sorry.
The new Cycling Plus magazine has an article about three off the shelf fixed bikes sold in the UK. The new Fuji is one of them, an On One "IL pompino" and a Setavento custom Ti bike. Just thought you might like it. Some good information in it.
Have you talked to Circle A? I think you can get what you want very reasonably, but I would invest in paint from another source.
Sorry.The new Cycling Plus magazine has an article about three off the shelf fixed bikes sold in the UK. The new Fuji is one of them, an On One "IL pompino" and a Setavento custom Ti bike. Just thought you might like it. Some good information in it.
Have you talked to Circle A? I think you can get what you want very reasonably, but I would invest in paint from another source.
09-08-05 | 12:52 PM
#13
Thread Starter
Retrogrouch in Training
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,484
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From: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
I'd forgotten about the Vigorelli. That should give me just about everthing I want for a not-too-bad price. Part of me is simply in love with the idea of a bike crafted just for me, it's pure luxury. A repaint won't give me that same feeling. I also like the idea that I can just roll down to Holliston one day and talk things over with the guy or swing by and pick it up myself. It's not entirely rational.
And frankly, I have no doubt that Mike can build as good a bike as anyone at IF. I mean he was their welder and painter back in the day. Ti? I guess it's probably nice, but I don't really yearn for it. Paint and a round of Frame Saver is all it needs. This would be a nice day ride, I'd keep the beater for crappy weather.
I may have a life choice coming up in the next few days that will help inform this decision.
And frankly, I have no doubt that Mike can build as good a bike as anyone at IF. I mean he was their welder and painter back in the day. Ti? I guess it's probably nice, but I don't really yearn for it. Paint and a round of Frame Saver is all it needs. This would be a nice day ride, I'd keep the beater for crappy weather.
I may have a life choice coming up in the next few days that will help inform this decision.
Last edited by bostontrevor; 09-08-05 at 12:57 PM.
09-08-05 | 12:53 PM
#14
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 986
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
You're right custom bikes are terrible.
I got Thylacine to build me a custom road bike and
it pisses me off how amazing it is. I can't get over
how comfortable it is and how I made no compromises.
what pisses me off is that now I can't go back to
stock and now I want a custom fix-gear too.
"Custom bikes: so awesome you'll want to off yourself"
jeff
I got Thylacine to build me a custom road bike and
it pisses me off how amazing it is. I can't get over
how comfortable it is and how I made no compromises.
what pisses me off is that now I can't go back to
stock and now I want a custom fix-gear too.
"Custom bikes: so awesome you'll want to off yourself"
jeff
09-08-05 | 01:06 PM
#15
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 795
Likes: 0
From: DC
Bikes: De Rosa Corum, custom Kalavinka, Bianchi RC Pista, Cannondale MT Track, Workcycles Gr8
That cracks me up, but it's so true. My first custom bike has only convinced me that I need another custom bike, but it will be a road bike.
09-08-05 | 02:54 PM
#17
ganbatte!
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
From: nyc
Bikes: '06 Vanilla touring, '09 Vanilla cx, Zanconato cx, Moots Psychlo-X RSL prototype, Nagasawa track, Kalavinka track, Black Cat 29er, Cannondale Rize 2 26er, Serotta CRL Legend
Jose, I was just going to post about kirk as well. If I ever get a custom, I'm getting one from him... Unbelievable.
Sadly, it's probably like $2500, but man... SO hot.
-s
Sadly, it's probably like $2500, but man... SO hot.
-s
__________________
3RENSHO SRA | CO-MOTION CROSS | SAMSON | KALAVINKA | DE ROSA | DE ROSA PRO | CANNONDALE SIX13 | CO-MOTION NOR'WESTER
many many bikey photos
3RENSHO SRA | CO-MOTION CROSS | SAMSON | KALAVINKA | DE ROSA | DE ROSA PRO | CANNONDALE SIX13 | CO-MOTION NOR'WESTER
many many bikey photos
09-08-05 | 04:29 PM
#18
MADE IN TAIWAN
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,438
Likes: 0
From: SF
Bikes: Tarmac, Humble, Makino, Schwinn
those curved chainstays are amazing. Those kirks are beautiful. I've always thought Vanillas were creame of the crop and still do, but since getting into fixed, I've been steering more towards somthing like jonnycycles or even a Mercian. I need a job that pays more...
09-08-05 | 05:15 PM
#19
Thread Starter
Retrogrouch in Training
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,484
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From: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Idunno. I think the work that goes into that kind of ornate stuff is amazing. I think Hetchins are just astounding. I just don't think I want to ride something like that.
It's like living in a baroque villa, way too much going on. I'm a more subdued person. If I want flash, it's going to be accents, like a pearlescent paint job or nervex-style lugs.
It's like living in a baroque villa, way too much going on. I'm a more subdued person. If I want flash, it's going to be accents, like a pearlescent paint job or nervex-style lugs.
09-08-05 | 08:20 PM
#20
MADE IN TAIWAN
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,438
Likes: 0
From: SF
Bikes: Tarmac, Humble, Makino, Schwinn
Wow, I just checked out the KIRK website, those are some beautiful bikes.
Does weight make a difference with seatstays like that? I don't weigh that much so would it affect me as much as someone that's 175? Or is it completely impractical for actually velo racing?
Does weight make a difference with seatstays like that? I don't weigh that much so would it affect me as much as someone that's 175? Or is it completely impractical for actually velo racing?
09-08-05 | 09:17 PM
#21
terminate THIS!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Jungle
Bikes: a pedal cab
Originally Posted by wangster
Wow, I just checked out the KIRK website, those are some beautiful bikes.
Does weight make a difference with seatstays like that? I don't weigh that much so would it affect me as much as someone that's 175? Or is it completely impractical for actually velo racing?
Does weight make a difference with seatstays like that? I don't weigh that much so would it affect me as much as someone that's 175? Or is it completely impractical for actually velo racing?
Theres lots of other builders that make pretty, performance designed machines like https://rexcycles.com/
and https://www.rocklobstercycles.com/ and https://www.davidsonbicycles.com/html/home.shtml
and what about https://donwalkercycles.com/ , theres plennty of builders who make supernice rigs.
Walt
09-08-05 | 09:29 PM
#22
ganbatte!
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
From: nyc
Bikes: '06 Vanilla touring, '09 Vanilla cx, Zanconato cx, Moots Psychlo-X RSL prototype, Nagasawa track, Kalavinka track, Black Cat 29er, Cannondale Rize 2 26er, Serotta CRL Legend
Kirk does build fix -- the seat cluster below is from a fixed frame he built.
__________________
3RENSHO SRA | CO-MOTION CROSS | SAMSON | KALAVINKA | DE ROSA | DE ROSA PRO | CANNONDALE SIX13 | CO-MOTION NOR'WESTER
many many bikey photos
3RENSHO SRA | CO-MOTION CROSS | SAMSON | KALAVINKA | DE ROSA | DE ROSA PRO | CANNONDALE SIX13 | CO-MOTION NOR'WESTER
many many bikey photos
09-08-05 | 09:42 PM
#23
MADE IN TAIWAN
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,438
Likes: 0
From: SF
Bikes: Tarmac, Humble, Makino, Schwinn
I love that image... Those lugs are the most beautiful I've seen, don't see those kind around. I'm loving this thread because I'm discovering builders I've never even heard of before, a great eye opener. Now I just need to sell a few organs to pay for a frame... kidney anyone?
09-09-05 | 06:43 AM
#24
terminate THIS!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Jungle
Bikes: a pedal cab
If you want to see nice lugs, try going here https://www.bikelugs.com/pacentigallery/index.html where there is a whole page setup of nothing but framebuilders and lugshots
Try going here https://vintagecyclestudios.com/ for some of the best lugs and paintjobs and go here https://www.cwo.com/~lunarlab/1800pic.htm and here https://www.cwo.com/~lunarlab/3200pic.htm for some kickbutt lugwrk.
The carving is nice, but my fave is the simple, clean lines of this https://spectrum-cycles.com/53.htm
Try going here https://vintagecyclestudios.com/ for some of the best lugs and paintjobs and go here https://www.cwo.com/~lunarlab/1800pic.htm and here https://www.cwo.com/~lunarlab/3200pic.htm for some kickbutt lugwrk.
The carving is nice, but my fave is the simple, clean lines of this https://spectrum-cycles.com/53.htm
09-09-05 | 07:59 AM
#25
Just tighten everything
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
From: jamaica plain, ma
You know, the relevancy of the term 'bike pr0n' doesn't really sink in until someone points to a site with 'nice lugs' and you proceed to spend thirty minutes at work wishing you had a bike with lugs that nice.