Fair-Trade Bike Shoes?
02-21-06, 05:12 PM
#51
likes avocadoes
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Originally Posted by StevieT
ah! i've got a pair of those boots too! you must of been in oventic back in the day, r-dub, cause i got mine in 98, and the shop was in full swing.
i hear its really changed over the years, and the community is looking great.
i hear its really changed over the years, and the community is looking great.
...and I was there in early 98 the first time and the shop was very new, more established in 2000, and going crazy in 2002 (the last time I was in xiapas
) I've a buddy living there for the last 9 years visiting now and giving me lots of stories...sounds confusing, but in many ways hopeful.
02-21-06, 05:16 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by Placid Casual
Break up? Break up? What are you, some kind of socialist? Jeez, I'll bet you advocate federal regulation of between-meal snacking, you nannystate-mongering collectivist. Sheesh. "Break up," he says. Man, what issue of the Revolutionary Worker did you get that idea from, you tree-hugging ACLU member?
Actually, if you know anything about economics, agressive enforcement of our antitrust laws is essential to the functioning of a free market. If unrestricted growth is allowed, ologopolies, duopolies, and monopolies form, which restrict entry of competitors and are able to charge artificially high prices. This is no better than a single state company running everything.
I have no problem with individual consumers choosing to frequent one business or another due to some social issue or political issue---voting with your dollar works better than voting with your ballot. I am just oppossed to artificial/arbitrary government restrictions on market forces, which are proven to distort price upwards to the detriment of consumers.
My whole point in this--which got completely overlooked with the slavery references---was that in a free market--meaning one in which there is true unrestricted competition--a "fair' price is whatever one is willing to agree to. I wholeheartedly agree that trading with countries where a single company runs everything is not truly "free trade."
I was trying to make a point about how prices are arrived at. I just get peeved when i see threads about "what is a 'fair' price for this bike" or "is 1000K a 'fair' price for this." The answer is obviously that if you are willing to pay that amount for the product than it is "fair."
sorry for the threadjack and the ensuing political economy discussion
02-21-06, 05:33 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by ink1373
wow...this is still going?
lets all take a deeeeep breath and read some thomas frank.
lets all take a deeeeep breath and read some thomas frank.
02-21-06, 05:35 PM
#55
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normally I just read crap like this and laugh, but this was just too much for me. If y'all can't see the humor in this statement you really do need to go back to school or shut your mouths before you make any bigger fools of yourselves.
<i>its "coercion" because often times the corporations pay out more wages than the entire GDP of said country.</i>
just think about what that would mean for a bit.
<i>its "coercion" because often times the corporations pay out more wages than the entire GDP of said country.</i>
just think about what that would mean for a bit.
02-21-06, 06:25 PM
#56
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Sooooo instead of replying in this thread where he could be duly humiliated poster ink1373 decided to send me a pm instead.
"poor kid, you just didn't understand me, huh? i understand that things are different in georgia.
i'll try to dumb it down next time."
maybe I should dumb it down for you. If any coorperation is paying its workers more then the entire GDP of the country they live in you should be thanking them not saying they are coercing the poor underclasses. Since you clearly have the critical reasoning skills of a five year old I will allow you to research that and figure out why.
When you really understand what you are saying instead of parroting Naomi Klein third hand maybe we can discuss trade issues until then think before you flame.
"poor kid, you just didn't understand me, huh? i understand that things are different in georgia.
i'll try to dumb it down next time."
maybe I should dumb it down for you. If any coorperation is paying its workers more then the entire GDP of the country they live in you should be thanking them not saying they are coercing the poor underclasses. Since you clearly have the critical reasoning skills of a five year old I will allow you to research that and figure out why.
When you really understand what you are saying instead of parroting Naomi Klein third hand maybe we can discuss trade issues until then think before you flame.
02-21-06, 06:52 PM
#57
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again with the PMs.
[I}how about you start from the beginning, read the whole thread again, and then admit that you're stuck in your ways and can't listen to reason.
i really can't help you with your pitiful lack of understanding. thats something that you're going to have to deal with on your own.
just change your diaper, and try to get over it.
sorry your ego hurts, guy."[/I]
Let me give you a hint look up the definition of GDP. Then sit and think what it would mean if one company paid more in wages to the workers of a country then the GDP of the country.
If you still can't figure it out ask and I'll explain it. But maybe you can develop the basic skills nessecary to become a free thinking individual instead of a mindless activist.
[I}how about you start from the beginning, read the whole thread again, and then admit that you're stuck in your ways and can't listen to reason.
i really can't help you with your pitiful lack of understanding. thats something that you're going to have to deal with on your own.
just change your diaper, and try to get over it.
sorry your ego hurts, guy."[/I]
Let me give you a hint look up the definition of GDP. Then sit and think what it would mean if one company paid more in wages to the workers of a country then the GDP of the country.
If you still can't figure it out ask and I'll explain it. But maybe you can develop the basic skills nessecary to become a free thinking individual instead of a mindless activist.
02-21-06, 06:59 PM
#58
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i was PMing to save you the embarassment of hashing it out here, because the majority is clearly against you.
they do exactly what i said. these are areas of the world where subsistence farming has been the norm for centuries. when a large company moves in and lays down a factory, they begin paying wages that dwarf the previous GDP of the country that they've moved into.
if you think that that means that they're making people rich, you just plain don't know what you're talking about. when a corporation has control over every financial asset in the country, and pay the wage of nearly every employed person living there, it means that they exert far too much power. they can bend what would normally be considered a human rights violation, because the local governments know that if the company leaves, they lose all of their tax revenue. subsistence farmers don't generally pay a lot of taxes.
i can't break it down for you any further. i said all of this already, but i used bigger, scarier words.
once again, i'm sorry that you're having comprehension issues. you should go back to lurking, because you're not having much luck here.
they do exactly what i said. these are areas of the world where subsistence farming has been the norm for centuries. when a large company moves in and lays down a factory, they begin paying wages that dwarf the previous GDP of the country that they've moved into.
if you think that that means that they're making people rich, you just plain don't know what you're talking about. when a corporation has control over every financial asset in the country, and pay the wage of nearly every employed person living there, it means that they exert far too much power. they can bend what would normally be considered a human rights violation, because the local governments know that if the company leaves, they lose all of their tax revenue. subsistence farmers don't generally pay a lot of taxes.
i can't break it down for you any further. i said all of this already, but i used bigger, scarier words.
once again, i'm sorry that you're having comprehension issues. you should go back to lurking, because you're not having much luck here.
02-21-06, 07:20 PM
#59
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previous GDP
Does this mean you caught your error? I'm proud.
The rest of your posts are full of hyperbole and logical holes.
For example please name one country(not currently involved in a civil war and not vanuatu or something) where one coorp pays the wages of "almost every employed person living there".
By the way I never stated what I thought.
Does this mean you caught your error? I'm proud.
The rest of your posts are full of hyperbole and logical holes.
For example please name one country(not currently involved in a civil war and not vanuatu or something) where one coorp pays the wages of "almost every employed person living there".
By the way I never stated what I thought.
02-21-06, 07:23 PM
#60
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oh, my error! you're the only one who didn't understand what i meant, buddy.
this whole crusade of yours is getting really sad. i'm going to leave this thread alone now. you can feel free to keep pounding on it if you want, but you're the only one who is still struggling here.
feel free to take this as meaning "i give up! you're so right!" if thats what your ego needs.
bye now.
this whole crusade of yours is getting really sad. i'm going to leave this thread alone now. you can feel free to keep pounding on it if you want, but you're the only one who is still struggling here.
feel free to take this as meaning "i give up! you're so right!" if thats what your ego needs.
bye now.
02-21-06, 08:03 PM
#61
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...i like shoes. speaking of which, what about not necessarily vegan, or fair trade, or anything like that just plain old fashioned clip and strap compatible shoes? are these still made? (along the lines of the old detto pietros or duegis)
02-22-06, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dutret
normally I just read crap like this and laugh, but this was just too much for me. If y'all can't see the humor in this statement you really do need to go back to school or shut your mouths before you make any bigger fools of yourselves.
<i>its "coercion" because often times the corporations pay out more wages than the entire GDP of said country.</i>
just think about what that would mean for a bit.
<i>its "coercion" because often times the corporations pay out more wages than the entire GDP of said country.</i>
just think about what that would mean for a bit.
06-21-07, 08:29 PM
#64
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lol nice thread bump
link1373 if youre still around
im loving you in this thread
gotta say too
dutret here is like my snotty brother
desperately eager to use narrow definitions to turn tiny misstatements and even clear statements into hypocrisy
hes come so far in a year
link1373 if youre still around
im loving you in this thread
gotta say too
dutret here is like my snotty brother
desperately eager to use narrow definitions to turn tiny misstatements and even clear statements into hypocrisy
hes come so far in a year
06-21-07, 08:43 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by killsurfcity
personally i don't believe real change is possible. we're reeling toward the end of the world, it's up to you whether it's a rollercoaster ride or a car crash.
06-22-07, 01:46 AM
#66
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Originally Posted by humancongereel
i hate to say it, but that's become my opinion over the last few years. sure, i try not to make the world a worse place, but i've seen so many fail so many times in trying to make it better, and i think perhaps you can only make your world better.
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Reason is a scoundrel, stupidity is direct and honest. –Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov
Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. –Oliver Wendell Holmes
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Reason is a scoundrel, stupidity is direct and honest. –Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov
Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. –Oliver Wendell Holmes
06-22-07, 03:08 AM
#67
this is relevant
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Originally Posted by skanking biker
sorry for the threadjack and the ensuing political economy discussion
What shoe company has shoe sizes comparable to Ipath? I'm thinking of getting a pair of Dayak Beiges, assuming they're union made.
06-22-07, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by doofo
dutret here is like my snotty brother
desperately eager to use narrow definitions to turn tiny misstatements and even clear statements into hypocrisy
desperately eager to use narrow definitions to turn tiny misstatements and even clear statements into hypocrisy
06-22-07, 06:42 AM
#69
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Originally Posted by Placid Casual
Go to the Confederate States and ask any involuntary plantation employee ("slave" is an unfair term used by the liberal media to play on your sympathies) who moved from a muddy grass hut in Western Africa to a sturdy, well-built dormitory in Virginia to work for what you think is a mere subsistence diet and a bed of hay--to them it's a cornucopia and a comfortable paradise. And for every one who makes an unauthorized night-time exit ("runs away" is another biased media term), there are hundreds who stay, which proves that most of them enjoy their circumstances. Not that the non-compensated employees aren't underpaid, but it's all relative to their standard of living beforehand. Plus, with the help of the overseers, they have a heck of a work ethic. And you can tell that they're happy because they're always singing and clapping.
I try to buy cotton from plantations with monetarily-compensated employees whenever possible, but the truth is, most "free state" (another biased media term) cotton is overpriced and the increase in quality is negligible. Most of the price difference is in the plantation owner compensating the employees for their labor with money, so it's not like the increased price is representing a corresponding increase in quality. That's the primary reason "free" plantations have so many problems--they have so many built-in fixed costs with monetary benefits (i.e., paying wages to their employees), they can't price their cotton competitively and to do so means reducing other costs--i.e. making a sub-par quality product.
So rather than judging a transaction by its voluntariness, you judge it by a self-imposed "fairness" standard. Who, pray tell, is the all knowing, all powerful adjudicator of what is "fair"---what great circle of my "betters" gets to decide what is fair? What elitist platonic guardians--the so-called "abolitionists," perhaps?--get to tell me when and how i can sell or buy something?
I try to buy cotton from plantations with monetarily-compensated employees whenever possible, but the truth is, most "free state" (another biased media term) cotton is overpriced and the increase in quality is negligible. Most of the price difference is in the plantation owner compensating the employees for their labor with money, so it's not like the increased price is representing a corresponding increase in quality. That's the primary reason "free" plantations have so many problems--they have so many built-in fixed costs with monetary benefits (i.e., paying wages to their employees), they can't price their cotton competitively and to do so means reducing other costs--i.e. making a sub-par quality product.
So rather than judging a transaction by its voluntariness, you judge it by a self-imposed "fairness" standard. Who, pray tell, is the all knowing, all powerful adjudicator of what is "fair"---what great circle of my "betters" gets to decide what is fair? What elitist platonic guardians--the so-called "abolitionists," perhaps?--get to tell me when and how i can sell or buy something?
Before I explode, are you actually saying that we still have slaves in the South?
06-22-07, 08:47 AM
#73
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I haven't looked at the forums for weeks now, I happen to take a glance through, and what do I find? This thread is still going on without anyone addressing my original question!
Awesome.
Well, I should be good for another month or so without Bikeforums.
Awesome.
Well, I should be good for another month or so without Bikeforums.
06-22-07, 08:58 AM
#74
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I like to buy things that come from sweat shops because if you hold the item up to your ear on a cool summer evening, you can faintly hear the crying of worker who made it. A special bonus is when the wind is still enough and you can smell their tears.
PS this is a fantastic thread.
PPS go ride your bike.
PS this is a fantastic thread.
PPS go ride your bike.
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Originally Posted by [165]
I think I have absolutely nothing else to add to this forum ever again.
06-22-07, 10:51 AM
#75
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Originally Posted by Analog
Ok, here's a question for all of you; I've looked into this a lot, and haven't turned up anything good:
Can anyone recommend a good bike shoe, not clipless or anything, just stiff and good looking, that is either fair-trade, or Union made in the U.S.?
I really like the style of a lot of shoe companies like Diadora, or Puma, etc, but am not willing to buy their product (At least not first-hand), for ethical reasons.
If you have any suggestions, that would be great!
Can anyone recommend a good bike shoe, not clipless or anything, just stiff and good looking, that is either fair-trade, or Union made in the U.S.?
I really like the style of a lot of shoe companies like Diadora, or Puma, etc, but am not willing to buy their product (At least not first-hand), for ethical reasons.
If you have any suggestions, that would be great!