Thanks for using my quote. That letter is a great defense of why it's not worth paying for a Reynolds 520 sticker when all you're getting is regular 4130. I'm a big advocate of this position, I think we all do the world a little good when we don't pay more for logos or hype.

However, it doesn't address the real issue, which is why not use something that's actually better and put more value into the bike, being that they charge a premium over other other bikes made out of the same (or in their view comparable) tubing in the same factory. If they don't think 631 or whatever other good but not insanely expensive tubeset is actually better than their 4130, then good for them, but most of us steel heads think otherwise. I have a 4130 bike and a 531 (precursor to 631) bike and I can definitely tell the difference. I know that double blind testing and whatnot is impossible with stuff like this, but I feel like there's a good basis of knowledge in the bike industry to justify the claim that better steel would make the Surlys better bikes.

Also, claiming that you use the same butting profile as 631 and that therefore your stuff is as good as 631 is just silly.

He has a valid point.
At the low end of tubing, 4130, 520, Verus, Thron etc. are all pretty much the same material. They don't differ greatly in strength. And they're all steel, so they obviously all weigh the same. The only difference is in the tubing shapes, diameter and butting profile. (well, and the sticker on the seat tube)
A "generic" 4130 tube and a Reynolds 520 tube shaped and butted the same way will weigh/look/ride identically.

Note how he says that the tubes are "custom drawn to their specification". There are a number of excellent tubing companies in Taiwan that do exactly this. Draw tubes to whatever diameter and butting profile you want. Even in small batches. Kogswell makes extensive use of "Eco" brand tubing (which you would call "generic" 4130) which they have butted, in small batches to whatever spec they want. Kogswell runs really small batches from the Maxway factory, and Eco draws them tubing with frame-size-specific butt profiles in tiny, tiny batch sizes.

This is the type of customization you can get with a taiwanese tube factory - with tubing that is just as good, but *cheaper*

I spent the weekend swapping parts over from a KHS to my new Steamroller.
I wanted a frame with much more tire clearance than I already had for riding on these crappy Boston streets. So far I'm loving it. 28's + fenders with clearance to spare.
Sure the $400 New frameset price is a bit high. But pretty much every Surly frame is unique (or was when it first was released). That's why I didn't buy it new :D
What other "track" frame offers that much tire clearance?
What other horizontal-drop steel cross frame is there (available as a frame-only)?
What other SS 29er existed when the Karate Monkey came out?
Will there ever be anything else like a Pugsley? or the Big Dummy?

Right, you can get really good generic 4130 for cheap in Taiwan, no argument there. The issue is why not use something better for bikes that are so good otherwise.

Just for fun:

What other "track" frame offers that much tire clearance?
-It's not a track frame, it's a road bike with the wrong dropouts/ends for a frame drilled for a rear brake and unnecessarily nasty things done to its chainstays. It does have a ton of tire clearance, which makes it great for fenders. Too bad there's nothing to mount them to. Besides, it's not like there aren't a million frames out there that take huge tires on a 700 wheel, some of them are even made from 531. They're called old road bikes.

What other horizontal-drop steel cross frame is there (available as a frame-only)?
-you got me, I don't ride cross. Also, horizontal drops aren't needed for cross, you can always run a tensioner.

What other SS 29er existed when the Karate Monkey came out?
-I don't follow the MTB market, but I thought the Karate Monkey always had a hanger

Will there ever be anything else like a Pugsley? or the Big Dummy?
-The pugsley is pretty unique. The Big Dummy will likely hold onto its title as the only ready-built xtracycle bike for a while since Surly = QBP and QBP = the distributor for xtracycle parts and accessories.

You're paying the hipster tax. Law of supply and demand plus the size of the company. Offering their unique choices of bicycle frames is what they are about; not selling a dirt cheap frame. The ones I've seen here have been some cool-looking bikes built up with some nice stuff.

My Bianchi says "Advanced Steel Technology Chromo Lite Bianchi Engineered Double Butted Heat Treated" What does that mean? heck if I know. Do I care? no. I took it for a test ride, liked the way it felt, bought it.

Don't get so hung up on what steel is being used; just ride.

OK. what makes your ideal tubeset (631?) "better" for this application?

more fun:
It's not a track frame.
- that's why i wrote "track". In my size at least it's the "trackiest" of all the other fat-tired road frames. higher BB, shorter chainstays/wheelbase, steeper STA/HTA than any of the other options (Jamie Roy, Paddy Wagon, 925, San Jose, One-Way, Fillmore...) all while being able to fit fatter tires than most of them.

Fenders? You can't mount fenders? Oh crap. then I must have done something wrong since i've got full fenders mounted on mine. P-clips work fine. Sure they're kinda ugly, but fenders are ugly to begin with. Yeah it would have saved me an hour and two trips to the hardware store if there were fender eyelets, but then again, unused eyelets are kinda ugly in themselves.

Millions of old road frames that'll accept fat tires? Show me. Where can I find an old 531 frame, with criterium geometry (not an old touring frame) that'll accept 35c's?

-Also, horizontal drops aren't needed for cross, you can always run a tensioner.
not if you want to ride it fixed. I'd argue that the Cross check is the most versatile frame currently on the market. Not much comes close.

-I thought the Karate Monkey always had a hanger
It does. A derailleur hanger on track ends. Now there are much more elegant solutions out there.

I'm not here to debate 631 vs. 4130, like I said if we want to agree with Surly that steel is steel and going to a better tubeset would amount to paying for a sticker, then we can do that, but tons of people feel otherwise, including people who actually build bikes professionally. However, 631 would be lighter or stiffer, depending on how you spec'd the tubes, and will generally speaking have more consistent and even properties than a non air hardened tube. Again, though, debate for another time and place.

-I never said you can't mount fenders, but I think it's a laugh riot that the surly site crows about how well they fit, and then tells you to use clip-ons (race blades). News flash: race blades fit on anything, they don't go under the brake. They'd fit just as well on a track frame with max clearance for 23's.

-There are a ton of old road frames made from 531 or other nice stuff that were set up for 27" wheels. Put on 700's and you can fit a 35 no problem. Even old crit bikes made for 700's can usually fit up to a 32, my Raleigh Professional will. If you want that bike you can find it in my cold, dead hands. Bring a suitable tool for prying :)

-Agreed, the cross check is quite versatile, though so is any cross frame unless you want to run truly ginormous tires. Again, I'm not too happy about what they had to do to the chainstays to make that possible, but I guess if I don't like it I can spec my own run of frames from Maxway. It's a shame they didn't use those dropouts on the steamroller, nothing would have been lost and much would have been gained. Also a shame you can't get it in a better tubeset.

-Agreed that a hanger on track ends is the worst design in the known universe.


I actually have nothing against Surly, I mostly like their designs, I just wish you could get them in something other than low-end tubing, which is what I've been saying all along. Otherwise, unless you need all the little special features, it's just overpriced Maxway 4130.

We used to use Maxway. We've moved on to other frame shops now.

But what you've said is still perfectly accurate. Surly steel frames are made at Maxway and Maxway and QBP can work with the Taiwanese tubing vendors to optimize the tubes that get used in their frames. I've talked to QBP designers and while they were reluctant to give me details, they do indeed put a lot of thought into tubing specs.

Reports of the decline of steel tubing production are exaggerated. Columbus does not routinely make steel tubes with the butt profiles needed for lugged construction. But for the Taiwanese vendors it is a routine matter.

One thing to remember about 4130 is that was widely accepted because it was an alloy that was well suited to the kinds of things that steel is asked to do: it's strong, it lends itself well to heat treating and it can be welded. The other thing to remember about 4130 is that the aerospace and hydraulic industries made vast improvements to its production processes in the later part of the twentieth century.

Modern 4130 is a material with a tremendous value ratio.

My Steamroller is great. Running pretty much all stock parts and it is just a hair over 20lbs. Not saying that's light but it's certainly not too heavy. I ride my 20 30 steel Raleigh all the time, it's a tank but I still love it. As far as the price goes; people are going to pay what they're going to pay. If you're patient (or broke) you can get a great deal on just about anything, otherwise it becomes a matter of how much is time worth.

Necro-thread. Let's argue with Surly some more!

I was talked out of buying a Steamroller a while back, and bought a Bareknuckle instead. I love the BK, its fast and light, but ended up buying a Mark V Pro to build as a semi beater bike. I really want to compare my IRO with a Steamroller complete to get a better idea of the differences. Im sure the IRO will be heavier than my BK, Phils and all, but the paint job is much nicer on the IRO, that is one thing for sure.

First, regarding the letter from Surly, if you think it was a little harsh, you need to look into the company a little more. Their company name is a fairly apt descriptor of the attitude they like to convey - everyone I have dealt with there was very helpful, friendly, and fiercely opinionated.

As for the steel arguements, I have owned three cromo 4130 frames (still own two of them), and they all ride completely differently - some good, some not so much. The grade of steel is less important than what you do with it. I am not saying that you can take low end 4130 and make a comparable bike to some of the steel exotics that are out there (I put together and tested a Dedaccai EOM road bike that was absolutely amazing), but I don't think the difference between 4130 and 631 is all it is hyped up to be.

Finally, to echo a point made by several others, even though Surlys are made at one of the biggest factories in the biz, they are very much not the same as anything else rolling off they assembly line. Having spent years looking through bike cataloges, it doesn't take much to see how different their offerings are.

I agree that they cost more, but I do think they are worth it and priced appropriately. If you want someone who looked through a factory spec cataloge and picked out some models, go for it (really, there isn't anything wrong with it if you just need a standard entry level bike). Why do you think there are so many entry level fixies (or bikes in general) that are more or less clones of each other?

I'm a big fan of Surly in general and my $300 crosscheck in particular. No other frame I looked at came close to what I was looking for (cheap, strong, new, with horizontal dropouts and all the commuting doodads). This Steelwool Tweed does look nice though!

well said

Right, but the whole point of this thread was that $300 is much closer to what they ought to cost than the $410 list for that frameset.

My crosscheck is made with 631. Great bike that has been put through hell for almost ten years. I would buy another in a second.

I really want a travelers check...

But on the subject, I don't think we ought to be complaining about the prices of bikes in general; they vary from company to company, but generally you get what you pay for; we aren't getting screwed the way people get screwed on **** like basketball shoes. Besides, if we whine enough, they'll just end up selling "Steamrollers" at Wal-mart, and then everyone will feel stupid.

i do too! though, i know if i get one i'll never get an opportunity to break it down and take it anywhere.

i did contact surly the other day though and they hinted at a new color coming soon... ;)

i have a steamroller and love it. yes it weighs more then some, but i cant feel that when riding it.
i think they are a great deal.

this thread is fantastic
 

This is a great thread and there are many valid points. I own (or owned) five fantastic cro-moly frames, IRO Mark V, IRO Group Buy, On One Inbred, Surly Karate Monkey, and the banger, a 94 full rigid Stumpjumper (still have it too). I have attempted to destroy each of these bikes and failed miserably. I'm pretty sure that any of these frames, assembled one tier up the cro-moly tube spectrum would be indistinguishable. No difference in quality of ride. Maybe a Snickers bar in weight difference. The Stumpy has supposedly fancy Tange Prestige tubing, but that is 1994 tubing! The technology to make great steel tubes for has existed for years, and yet people still go back to tried and true 4130 (Tange Prestige label says 4130). The Surly guys (and gals), Tony, Brant, and those jokers at Specialized know that building a good and durable frame comes from designing the angles, spec'ing appropriate diameters, wall thickness and butting profiles. Airplanes are made with this stuff, and who is a bigger weight weenie than an airplane manufacturer?
Think about the real world things, like ease of assembly (welding temps), dent resistance and availability of alloying materials and transport costs. It's too good not to use. Save the fancy tubesets for race day or full custom rigs. And if you think Surly, On-One or whoever is too expensive, buy one used, there are only about a billion of them everyday on craigslist and e-bay. On a daily driver you'll never know the difference!

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...nia066copy.jpg
ive had my streamroller for about 5 months now and its served me greatly in indiana, chicago and los angeles. i have no complaints

Other than looking weird, what's bad about it? Given the variety of configurations the KM is intended to support and the geometry they wanted it to have, it makes perfect sense.

Forward facing horizontal dropouts would have probably required them to lengthen the chainstays (and probably the wheelbase) to make it possible to get the wheel in and out.

Vertical dropouts would mean that they needed some other solution (eccentric BB or sliding dropouts) to enable people to run fixed (which is how mine is set up); Either would add cost and complexity and probably reduce durability a bit, while only benefitting some KM users. When I was thinking about building an off-road fixie I looked at the various alternatives and settled on the KM in part because it would let me adjust the chain tension exactly the way I'm used to, without requiring additional moving parts on the frame.

They make it harder to get the wheel in and out (especially with gears and disc brakes, you either have to derail the chain up front or you have the RD wanting to pull the wheel sideways and tweak your nice rotors), you have to adjust the rear brake if you have rim brakes and a flip flop with different gears, and if you're running geared they can be really futzy as having the wheel too far back or forward can mess with the shifting.

Forward facing horizontals would be fine, the chainstays don't have to be more than a few mm longer than they have to be for the tire to fit at all for you to be able to get it out. There's nothing a rear facing horizontal can do for you that a forward facing can't, and I don't really see why adjusting chain tension on them is different enough to matter.

Surly designs bikes well, makes them from good materials, and sells them at prices that I see as fare.


So thats my opinion, but I am also from minnesota.

It is odd that Surly says that on their website becaues the frame will fit full fenders. Given that we get lots of snow/salt/slush/etc. I tried to put my full fenders on and they fit beautifully with my 28c tires. I'm running the wider 42mm Planet Bike fenders that are made for up to 35 mm tires, and there were no fender/frame clearance issues no less (I owned a custom Vanilla "touring" frame where the fender had to be squeezed between the seat stays and fork to fit).

That said, I got my Surly for <$300 new from my local shop, and for the price, I couldn't be happier :)

All fenders are clip on fenders if you use pclips.I think thats what surly meant.