it helps if you always keep in mind that TRAIL refers to the amount the contact patch 'trails' behind the steering axis (or centerline of the head/steerer tubes)..

adding rake to a fork would move the contact patch forward and closer to the steering axis (decreasing trail). in this case the steering axis does not change while the tire slides forward.
likewise,
increasing head tube angle effectively brings the steering axis backwards, closer to the contact patch (also decreasing trail). here, the contact patch remains in place as the fork pivots around the axle and the steering angle changes.

So now I have a reading comprehension problem because I understand that inserting the word "unless" at the beginning of a sentence doesn't change the message you are sending? OK champ, whatever you say.

Eddie,
Decreased (from what's road typical for 650C wheels) rake of a fork could help you, given steeper headtube. You could get the trail sorta right but there will be another problem dutret alludes to. The feedback you will get from the bike for counter-steering at higher speeds will be much less - in other words leaning the bike for the turn will not try to turn bars as much as for typical road bike.

The above is not a theory only, I have added nashbar touring/cross carbon to typical mtb frame. I am using 28 inch cross wheels, about same diameter as 26" wheels with 2inch tires, so this is not a factor. At 40 cm, fork is shorter by about 5cm than proper MTB fork. Thus, the angles are much steeper and 45mm fork rake of a cross fork gives only about 2cm of trail and steep angles result in turning the wheel not affecting leaning the bike much - thus the bike is twitchy and difficult to ride no handed, definitely feeling trackier than my track bike despite being only a winter commuter :-)

It does and even if it doesn't intimating that someone might be really stupid because they posted a really simple picture that they couldn't understand is hardly out of line with the general posting here.

**** you and **** this board. It's full of complete ****ing morons like EB and every other ignorant hipster piece of **** and while in general the idiocy and ignorance is lower than a year or two ago, peoples values are repugnant, they aren't honest enough with themselves about what works and what looks cool, and very few people know **** about bikes but never let is stop them from posting with authority.

The moderation is capricious and carried out by ****ups only barely more intelligent than the worst of the forum members. **** like the wood thread that is off topic and degrading goes on for days but something that only a thin skinned baby would be insulted by gets an infraction and comments. Something that is less insulting that an entire stickied thread. If you want to let **** slide who am I to tell you to work your ass of to clean it up, I'm all for a laissez faire bb. If you want to clean it up, fine, it's a ****ing cesspool. However no mod does either. Y'all let ridiculous **** slide and then try to pull some bull**** like an instant ban for posting a pm or a infraction for a non-insult.

It's not a question of who knows what or who's a hipster and who's not. I don't care if you're a hipster jackass or Sheldon Brown himself. If you go around posting rude and insulting crap all day long, you'll get infractions from me. It doesn't matter to me how much you know about bikes, or how many top tube protector posts you make. What counts is your general attitude. I don't play favorites, EB was seconds from getting an infraction too but he wisely deleted his post before I had a chance to respond.

i give up. bye

i wish i could show my bike with the 650c f wheel & fork, i can just barely use a computer and i don't know wtf i'm doing :/

OP = troll

i wish dutret was my dad

you seem to have misunderstood I never accused you of playing favorites rather just doing a ****ty job all around. *****ing about something that wasn't an insult when scores of actual insults are posted every day, as well as letting disasters like the wood thread and the last few pages of the jackass bike threads go unchecked forever. I don't think it's prejudice rather incompetence and a lack of a clear idea of what moderators should be doing.

lol

Oh, ok. I will admit to incompetence, just not bias. You know there's a "report post" link right? I don't read every single post as I'm not exactly getting paid for this.

If i may suck up a bit, kemmer has promptly gotten to more or less every post ive reported. Even though it may make you feel like a narc, it really is a good way to do something about unpleasant **** on the boards---and often far more effective than calling the poster out and setting off multiple pages of off-topic drama, such as the recent ****storm in the jackass thread.

Wow. This place hurts my brain piece.

this is the only post i bothered to read...

if you swap out a 700 front tire for a 650 you are an idiot, simple as that. either that or the only riding you ever do is in your driveway.

do you still have the riser bar & bmx stem on your bike?

Those pictures (the two on top) prove exactly what dutret was saying: you need less rake to keep the same trail with a steeper angled head tube.

arsesome thread boys

keep up the good work

Moar Dutret, Now!!!

i like dutret too now. i'm sorry i called him a bigwig. he's actually very intelligent and knows way more than me about bikes. we need him back.

man, i don't check these boards over christmas and this goes down....dammit.
bye dutret, you will be forever missed. i love the honesty of that guy.

Yeah, after I reread this thread a few days ago, I changed my sig.

so where do i find a 650 front on the cheap?

i mean, really... you're just going to kill yourself.

FWIW I have been riding this setup for about three months now. Absolutely no pedal scraping going on. It affords a lot of extra agility with no negative consequence. And I can't barspin because of the angle of my stem, and anyways because of the rake on the fork wouldn't be able to get the wheel past the downtube anyways, but that's fine, because it's very comfortable (and I wasn't doing this for barspinning anyways). I notice no excess twitchiness and no issues riding hands free. My other bike, with a 700 in front, feels like a boat when I ride it now. I really like the 650 in front.

So, thanks for the people who have tried this and encouraged me, it is a fun, fast, comfortable bike and I'm glad I went for it.

FWIW pt 2, I get my paycheck from riding my bike and am out there every day... I don't know why this was such a heinous question for some people.