In light of recent events, and in an attempt to take the argument away from the origonal thread, I pose the question:
Do we accept injury and possible death as a possible part of Alleycats?

I've organized several races. There have been two instances in which people have been hit in races where I've helped plan the route. One was at an intersection that I knew would be tempting yet sketchy to run, but that I also knew there to be a route around.
Neither was life threatening.
I've spent the night in a hospital in St Petersburg FL holding the hand of a close friend who was hit in a race there. She was ok.

Alleycats are street races. There is a long history here, probably starting with running, then horses, chariots, cars, morotcycles, and now bikes. They have, I'm sure, always been mostly unruled. There has always been injury and death.

If we do apply rules, how do we keep it from turning into pro-style bike racing, which many of us won't or can't compete in due to the requirements on equipment and quasi-mandatory drug taking?

Will an alleycat with saftety rules still be an alleycat?
Will stated rules actually make them safer?
Is this simply a result of more people racing therefore raising the probability that someone wll be hit?
Should we prevent less experienced riders from competing in events that would push them beyond their ability (recognizing the fact that many injuries are sustained by very experienced riders)?

If this is too soon, feel free to lock it. If it's been covered, lock it.
I thought I'd give people a place to vent their ideas about the current situation.

I organized a race or 2 back in KC and I have a ton to say about this. I'll post something up when I get back from work.

The minute you get on a bike you run serious risks for injury especially if you ride brakeless and in traffic. I'm not trying to start a brakeless or not debate, as thats like arguing over wearing condoms/a helmet/anything else that is a personal choice. I do think that risks are inherent in riding a bicycle, as unfortunate as that is, and alleycats seem to bring out the worst in some people, encouraging riders to try and sqeeze the yellow or red they normally wouldnt etc. I think that this aspect of the race is sort of what makes it what it is, but on the other hand, it can be unsafe. I think as far as the avoiding a pro style situation that will be avoided entirely through the (largely) casual mindset behind the races. People are there BECAUSE they dont want to race in some road race. Afterparties arent going to go away because you put rules in place, so I think the idea that the atmosphere could be effected might be hasty. But thats my opinion.

I volunteered at a race in Vancouver called "Probably A Bad Idea". It was a fixed only, miss-and-out/ devil take the hindmost race on a tight, winding figure 8 (i think) loop in Gastown, with moderate car traffic and the odd pedestrian. Sounds sketchy, hence the name. But the organizers were really good about making it safe. There were volunteers on every corner who would let the riders know about upcoming hazards, as well as letting cars and peds know when a big pack of cyclists was about to come bombing around the corner. And, helmets were mandatory. The race went awesome and if anything the increased safety gave everyone the confidence to go faster and harder.

I like that idea a lot. Too bad it would require an army for a race not on a circuit.

i think the risk is a huge draw in alleycats. nobody wants to get hurt, but the adrenaline,bragging rights and whatever else associated with taking those risks is a big part of the appeal.

i'm all for any steps organizers can take to help people race safely, but the truth is that people are going to find ways to put themselves at risk in order to gain a competitive advantage. that's true across the board for all types of bike racing.

i stopped trying to be competitive in alleycats a couple years ago. these days i'll work checkpoints, or ride the course and help shepherd out of towners but i just came to the conclusion that my self-preservation instinct was too strong for me to be a good alleycat racer.

I don't think anyone is arguing for limits on alleycat organizers tjfix (at least so far in the thread), the op is just talking about what organizers who are concerned can do.

True, true... descents in road racing come to mind. Often it's at least partly a question of who is willing to get closest to the edge.

I'm not Mr. Gung-Ho Alleycat guy, but if these riders wanted safe and controlled races, they'd go to the velodrome or the local criterium circuit. Clearly the appeal of these races is the danger. Most riders have seen the Monster Track videos and they're eager to emulate what they've seen there, and I don't know how race organizers can possibly expect to stop that.

Riders just need to be smarter and to know their limits.

Tim-you were at Fixed Fight?

I think that alleycats should remain what they always were. The main problem is competitors not knowing their limits. Watching Pedal, Red Light Go, and lucas brunelle may give you a very wrong idea of racing alleycats. I don't take unnecessary chances with my life for a bike race. Hell, I don't even like group rides for the same reason- people will take chances that I don't want to take.

OTOH, there is actual organized racing, and 'cross seems like the organized spiritual equivalent. at some point, I may try it out to get my racing in a safer place.

not sure i'd pick those two as examples of safe races, people get really badly hurt in both. probably more regularly than in alleycats, although i don't have any data to back that up. but your point, that danger is a huge defining aspect of alleycats, is definitely right.

it's a weird dichotomy, bike riding can be so peaceful and relaxing. but even friendly competition usually means jumping headfirst into a situation where you can really get seriously hurt, or worse. unfortunately the middle ground is often very hard to find.

If its about danger, you shouldn't be racing. Same if you got into bikes for the sake of danger - you shouldn't be riding. A lot of people just ride bikes in cities and have gotten pretty good at it.

But if alleycats have gotten so big that the situation is backwards and people are getting into bikes just to ride alleycats, then maybe alleycats should stop or be more DL.

well said.

I agree completely. More discretion to the organizers to organize the race how they see fit, and more discretion to riders to ride in the bounds of their limits. Let's not forget that alleycats are first and foremost messenger races, and in some rare cases only messengers are allowed to race (West Side Invite in Portland is one example, though a regular Joe who knows the right people can still get away with racing - they just don't get recognized as winning the main event if he does). People need to know when and when not to make risky decisions. The guy that got killed in TdC took a gamble and came out wrong. RIP to him and condolences to family and friends, but it should also be recognized that he did take a huge risk. Intersetions that have more than 2 paths crossing are no joke.

if you are gonna ride, know your limits

i rode in the slap dash alleycat in PDX during the NAHBS was going on, i was the only rider in my group of 5 that knew portland, and most of the time the guys from out of town were leading the pack, hitting intersections that i'd definately approach more cautiously. lucky we didnt have any acidents but common sense would dictate you dont go balls out towards a blind intersection, espically if you dont know the area.

There is a debate over in A&S about sueing your friend for inviting you on a ride that you get hurt on.

I think most of us are taking the same risks when we don't race. Just because it's a semi-organized event doesn't make the risk much different. And protecting people from themselves is stupid.

i still think messenger races should be messenger races. keep it word of mouth and you won't have to worry about weekend warriors looking to boost their spoke card collection.

There is something about being in a very dangerous situation that just makes you feel awesome. Like today when that jackass didn't signal that he was turning and I had to turn real fast and get around his front end before I ended up in some parking lot. Once I got back on the road, i felt great.

Haha, that is the silliest thing ever.

agreed 100%. working 12 hrs a day gives you the skill to negotiate tricky traffic situations. the occasional rider will never get that same experience riding to and from work, or doing bar spins on the weekend.

there was something about being in a dangerous situation that got this guy killed.

there's something about knowing how to come out of dangerous situations unscathed/not getting into them in the first place that's even awesomer. it takes a lot more skill, any sketchy dude on a stolen mountain bike can get into danger.

i don't think alleycats should change. they're almost completely individual on every level. the organizer there isn't there to babysit the riders; you can't even tell them what routes to take.

however, before races there are usually announcements of rules, etc, beforehand. a warning is often given: "this is an alleycat, an unsanctioned, illegal street race. if you are hurt or arrested, you don't know any of us. you were never in a race. remember that." perhaps a similar warning should be given. "this is a race. there will be winners and losers and prizes. none of that is worth losing your life or your bike or breaking bones and rides. race as hard as you can--if you race too hard, you risk things that are worth more than any custom-made bag or t-shirt"....or something like that.

I can't help but wonder what the legal exposure of race organizers and sponsors is? It is one thing for us to say it is an individual's risk, but I am not sure what a court would think of that claim. Even some very well organized rides like RAIN have come under legal scrutiny.

i've only ever had to sign a waiver to race once. it seems silly in a way, in that it clashes with the whole "underground messenger race" vibe of the race; but it's obvious that the races have surpassed that level in a lot of places. it might be smart just to write up a little something before races to have riders sign at registration.