I spoke to an engineer at PW about this. PW bearings differ from those available at bearing suppliers as PW bearings are filled 100% with waterproof grease and other bearings are only filled around 30% with a standard grease, which is spec for motor bearings.

I would stick with the brass nipples for a daily ridden wheelset, as alloy nipples are a softer metal and are more easily stripped while truing. rounded out nipples = huge pain in the rear.

I can only assume you are talking about me since i mentioned $269 and eBay. A close friend of mine works at my LBS and does all of the professional stuff I need done for... free (and I'm very grateful). When I purchase something, I don't go down there and beg or haggle with the shop or ask my friend to get me something for cheaper than retail cost. He already does enough for me. $269 is cheap for new black high flange Phils (and lockring). So as far as me just sitting at home and "clicking"... whatever. Thats not an accurate depiction of what I do.

Cool, good info. Thats why I got them was for strength, so I'm glad you think it was wise.

i wasn't talking about you, i was talking about people who buy things new in general. nothing pointed mentioned... i just wanted to make the point that it's easy to get high-quality stuff for the price of midrange gear, just by being smart and patient. so it sort of makes moot the point about this gear that it's overpriced, or that it's more money than warranted by performance upgrades.

Don't encourage them. If everyone did that, then there would be no suckers for smart and patient buyers like us to take advantage of.

Heh.

But I don't take advantage of suckers - I take advantage of a friendly local scene and generous acquaintances!

By the way, I have a story to match your Lemond purchase. Pictures in a week or so.

I would think that the 'smoothness' of your particular bike or drivetrain would be limited by its weakest link. If your chain/pedals/bb/tires/etc weren't perfectly cleaned & lubed/packed/seated & inflated properly/etc, then I would imagine that having cartridge vs. loose ball bearings in your hubs would take a backseat. (Not to mention the riding surface, bike weight, etc...)

For everyday street use, anyways.

well summer is near, and will likely be riding with phils and loose balls on some days.

Horse hockey. The typical rider, even a seasoned one isn't going to notice the difference between a cartridge and loose ball setup. Hell, the typical rider isn't going to notice whether his loose ball is too tight or just right.

Loose ball systems, I'm guessing, are cheaper to manufacturer, easier to service and provide for a greater level of commonality.

"Smooth bearings" is such an annoying, meaningless term. It's right up there with "stiff yet compliant". And Nickatina you are so full of **** sometimes.

explain your logic.

I just bought a set of phil's a while ago and they were going to be my nice weather rides. Does this mean that they can sit out in the rain/snow without wearing too much? It would be nice if I didn't have to worry about them.

yes pretty much phils are all weather hubs. It's looseball hubs that you may want to reserved for nice weather if you don't like the maintenance involved

well, not all of us live in NYC and have a nice network of like-minded friends and acquaintances to get decently priced used parts from. :)

It's an "intuitive" word with no technical meaning. People debate the relative "smoothness" of different hubs, some mf in this very thread claimed that loose balls are "smooth" but phils are "smooth" in a different way... but no one can actually say what it means. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that no bfssfger who runs their mouth about this stupid **** has ever looked at a chart comparing friction coefficients (or whatever the actual technical terminology is, I don't understand this stuff either) for different hubs. Let alone what kind of difference that would make on the track or off. My guess is, it's certainly not something you could ever notice without careful use of a stopwatch under controlled conditions. I could barely tell when my hub was just about locked up from a cartridge bearing exploding... it felt like a mild headwind.

what about rust?

you are right. I have had the blessing to ride both phil hubs (smooooth) and suntour superbe pro hubs(VERY SMOOTH!!!) but yet by me saying this, it means nothing to the outside viewer. I don't care for which is smoother since I don't race regularly (but there is a difference I will say). As long as my hub isn't pitted or grindy I could care less about how smooth a hub is because at the end of the day they both do their job well.

Yes. I have Campy hubs which never see a drop of water, and PW hubs that will see floods.

The shell is aluminum.

Thanks for all the input. I found a used pair of Phil hubs on Craigslist for $200, so I figure with the better price it could be worth it.

i totally knew that

Haha, sig'd.;)

So you're getting worked because the perception of smoothness is subjective?

Seriously, we're debating bearings, not the situation in the Middle East. Chill.

But if I pull off my cartridge bearing front hub from my fixed gear, and my loose ball front from my road bike and spin them i can certainly feel a difference. I havent ever read coefficient charts or anything of that sort, but I can certainly feel a less "smooth" roll when I spin both hubs, as well as notice a considerable difference in how long said wheels will spin for. If you REALLY want your hubs to spin, you would use a thinner grease, as has been common in many cycling events in the past.