what are some good steel frames under 450? for example i was looking at surly steamroller and the pake? they both look fine to me but friend says roller is better. what other frames are there?

IRO Mark V or Angus.

Dunno how good it is (going to find out soon though), but Performance had/has their Scattante SSR on sale for $200 with fork. Add in one of the 10%-15% coupons and "ship to store" if they're local to you and it ends up being less than $250. With a 15% coupon, ship to store, and $13 in Team Performance points, I got mine for $182.

Chris

a dremel tool can fix these abnormalities ^^^

pake is ok, but the track ends are thin and wimpy.

you can get merciers + fork for around $200. there's a thread in here if you want to see some builds

soma rush.

I've got a Soma Rush with a Surly lugged fork. and i think it's under $450 for the frame (the fork is $100)

alien. it's a lugged steel frame that looks pretty nice. and you can get it powdercoated. 20+ colors to choose from.

https://www.alienbikes.com/gear.html