neither is taiwan

D'oh!

Forget I said anything.

At this point, Taiwan is probably more democratic than Italy.

Me too (not talking about Taiwan here, but China and other countries). Of course they can make products that are just as well-made as anywhere else. Is that all anybody cares about? How about the way workers are treated? It's a human right's issue. I try not to buy products made in sweatshops, and it's very hard to know with some countries because they either have no labor protection laws, or the ones they have are a total joke. This is a bigger issue with apparel than bikes, but actually there are sweatshops making all sorts of products -- even iPhones.

This is what happens when a thread title uses China/Taiwan interchangeably and I stop paying attention to which specific country a specific post is referring to.

"China has 1 gold medal for every 50,000,000 people. The U.S. has 1 gold for every 21,000,000 people. Australia, on the other hand, has 1 gold medal for every 5,000,000."

Not a very good stratagist are you. With your analogy, you imply the greater the population the better the odds at winning a gold medal? Gee, you must have went to business school.

My point is....China is not a very good example of a place that encourages fair and ethical treatment of it's workers nor is it a good example of a place that has good quality control. You may think it is, but it is not. I don't know why you think it is, but it is not.

My GTB was made in the U.S.A. in 1998. It rides very well and I don't particularly care where my bikes are made but I am trying to tell you that there are some very good reasons why some products from China are to be avoided. I cannot say whether a bicycle would be one of those products however, if a person is basing their choice on quality control, China's are, at best, suspicious.

I dont know about you guys but I have always thought of most American made products as poor quality.

and some people in the US have also speculated that the US Govt was behind 9/11.

blah, blah, blah

yeah i always see "MADE IN USA" products just waiting to kill people stocked to the ceiling of truck stops.

then i see boutiques with nothing but asian and european goods and happy(if not broke) customers.

i'd rather drive a honda than a VW and i'd rather drive a VW than a ford.

bikes are a little different, but i love the hell out of my kilo.

My bad, I shouldn't have used the word "speculate" and instead the word "proven". It has been proven that that the building materials used in the 7000 different schools that collapsed were not up to the building standards. It has been proven that the contractors were in collusion with the regional prefects. Google it.

Thank God there is no corruption in the USA.

America!....100% corruption free!!! Woot!!

Taiwan and China both turn out high quality quality bikes, what I don't like is when a frame is made to look like it was made in [insert European country here] only to see the tacky black and white "MADE IN TAIWAN" sticker on the headtube. What these ompanies should do is proudly proclaim the Taiwanese heritage on the frame. We've all seen the Made in Italy banners and the elegant Made in England on vintage Raleighs (or the Derby, England designaton on a Mercian). It proclaims a sense of pride and quality that the Taiwanese aren't driving home. Instead yu buy a Trek and the cheap litte Made In... sticker is like ha!ha! fooled you! For God's sake, Taiwan, be proud!

That isn't what he's implying at all?

He's saying that, given China's population, and the law of averages, the number of gold medals they've won so far isn't all the impressive, compared to other countries who have won more gold medals per capita.

I mean, to use an extreme example, if there were only two countries on this planet, one of which contained 90% of the population, the other, 10%, would it really be all that impressive if the former country won 70% of the gold medals in their weirdo two-country olympics?

And at some point in America's past, similar atrocities were the norm (Google Riis...) and yet we made some damn fine stuff...

One can only hope that some of those responsible for the schools will go that same way as the minister responsible in the pet food scandal.

Nothing much is accomplished in a topic such as this, save for some unbridled stereotypical remarks and racist concatenations... pffft

Yeah.

For the most part, people "freak out" because they are stupid and can't tell the difference between ROC (although pretty much everyone just calls it "Taiwan" nowadays,) and PROC, both politically and quality-wise.

As far as owning a frame and components manufactured only in the USA, that ship sailed a long time ago, and maybe someone should've had their knee-jerk patriotic reaction back in 1980.

I love my:

Soma Rush (made in Taiwan)
Miyata 912 (made in Japan)
Bridgestone X0-1 (made in Japan)

I kinda have this thing though, for that
lugged De Rosa in the local roadie shop.

sorry about that mix up Jet. i just assumed it was made in taiwan because you have a kinesis fork. its funny because kinesis is the main oem manufacturer of all GT frames.
maybe it was just strange luck that you bought a separate fork that happens to also be made by the oem factory of gt frames.

i think kinesis is actually an excellent example of a factory in china with really good quality control.
People need to start realizing that the manufacturer has more to do with quality than the country of origin.

What's the problem with sweatshop labor, anyhow? Even with China's low wage scales, Chinese are increasingly prosperous, and leaving the villages for better opportunities in the big cities with manufacturing jobs. The sweatshop beats scratching out a living in the country.

An who says they're all sweatshops, anyhow? Much of China's manufacturing base is increasingly modern, sometimes more modern than the US.

Quality has nothing to do with country of origin. A vendor gets from his Chinese factory only what he specifies. Specify cheap, you get cheap. Specify quality, you get quality. Who would be willing to pay for a $10,000 Chinese frame, even if is in every way equal or better than a comparable US/European frame? Not many folks. China's low cost labor is much better utilized making low end products than high end ones. There's no sense in trying to make $100 Huffys in the US. The increasingly skilled and educated American worker is better utilized in services, information and high end manufacturing. Even with the economic downturn, the loss of manufacturing jobs to China and elsewhere simply hasn't had a negative effect on the prosperity of Americans as a whole. Rather, it's allowed Americans to spend less on a wider variety of products.

I, like most folks, purchase whatever is the best value for my money. These days, that often includes Chinese made products. We're been better off for it. And so are Chinese workers. I don't see much downside to this relationship.

To comment on sweat shop conditions in china. sure it would be stupid to say that there are no sweat shops in china. But the people saying that companies can go over there to set up a factory and do whatever they want. people that say that are straight up ignorant to situation. in jan of 2008 i believe thousands of (maybe even more) factory bosses (mainly korean) fled china because of the increase of minimum wage and of new laws protecting labor. many factories are NOT going to turn a profit this year because of this. And the Chinese government do enforce this.
Chinese factories have their margins push down low to 2-3-4 percent because of mainly american and japanese (europeans are much more humane when it comes to this) companies that are not willing to pay more for the **** they are having manufactured in China.
And since these Chinese factories are working on razor thin margins they have to do everything to cut cost and turn a profit. bad working condition arn't justifiable. but i'm just stating that this is a reason for why some factories are in such **** condition. And if walmart would be willing to give up some of their huge profit margins maybe the factories they use would have better conditions.
so next time you think of some poor chinese boy in some nightmare factory. the reason for that has more to do with westerners being exploitive savages than chinese being backwards.

So not all factories in china are the same. All the bicycle factories that i have been in here in china are very decent.
and even a wheel set assembly factory that is in a totally dust free environment. (you can't wear your shoes in there)

thats why i insist on taiwan parts for all my bike needs, this way i'll never be in doubt as to where it came from..

i have 8 kinesis forks, i loves em.