Chain Choice
09-26-08 | 04:47 AM
#26
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,656
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From: Long Island, NY
Among available 1/8" chains, which have bushings and which do not?
09-26-08 | 05:21 AM
#27
.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 12,769
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From: Rocket City, No'ala
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Treviso, 1990 Gardin Shred, 2006 Bianchi San Jose
I normally ride with a 3/32 chain, and I like 3/32 for the light weight of the whole drive train, and because I don't have any reason to not like it.
Next spring I intend/hope to build a new fixed gear bike, possibly my last build, and the option of building a 1/8 drive train interests me.
However, as a weight weenie, the heavier 1/8 drive train would need to need to have some benefit, such as smoothness or reliability, in order to justify it.
I wouldn't go to 1/8 solely because of its traditional use on the track, but only if it offered some other benefit.
Input, please, from someone who has ridden both 3/32 and 1/8.
Thanks.
Next spring I intend/hope to build a new fixed gear bike, possibly my last build, and the option of building a 1/8 drive train interests me.
However, as a weight weenie, the heavier 1/8 drive train would need to need to have some benefit, such as smoothness or reliability, in order to justify it.
I wouldn't go to 1/8 solely because of its traditional use on the track, but only if it offered some other benefit.
Input, please, from someone who has ridden both 3/32 and 1/8.
Thanks.
You expressed an interest in 1/8", presumably some fancy track crank has caught your eye. If so, then go with the 1/8".
I wouldn't worry at all about the weight differences or the strength differences. If you get your chainline just right, no worries about noise, either.
Have fun.
09-26-08 | 07:56 AM
#28
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Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Mass
Bikes: I just ride them, they own me.
I would really like to see some scientific proof that two chains of the same quality and materials but sized 1/8th and 3/32. From any math or science Ive ever learned 1/8th would be stronger. Im not disagreeing, I just would like to see some proof to all these "3/32 IS STRONGER AND FASTER BRO" comments.
That all being said, I don't think the focus should be so much on the chain, neither size: 3/32 vs 1/8, nor type: bushing vs bushing-less; as opposed to the other components of the drivetrain. As has been said, the best/roundest/most precise rings are almost exclusively 1/8". If you want to run your chain tension high, you better be as close to perfectly round as possible, and at least it seems to me that 1/8" is the way to go there. When considering rings, as opposed to chains, size does matter. Given similar engineering and materials, a 1/8" ring will be stronger and hold its shape against deformation under load better than a 3/32" ring, I don't think there could be any argument there.
zac
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09-26-08 | 08:10 AM
#29
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From: Mass
Bikes: I just ride them, they own me.
What a fascinating discussion.
Putting everything together, the issue has not to do with the dimensions of the chain, whether 3/32 or 1/8, but rather whether the chain has bushings in addition to the rollers.
The high-end 1/8 chains have bushings and rollers.
Low-end 1/8 chains and most, if not all, 3/32 chains, have rollers but not bushings.
Check out the pictures and the discussions on these following sites provided by a major industrial roller chain manufacturer:
https://chain-guide.com/basics/1-1-1-...ion-chain.html
https://chain-guide.com/basics/1-1-4-...ain-parts.html
The 1/8 chains with bushings have the advantageous qualities of greater lateral stiffness, less internal friction, greater flexibility, greater resistance to shock and external wear, and greater resistance (when properly cleaned and lubricated) to internal wear.
However, 1/8 chains with bushings pay for their advantages with significantly greater weight, complexity and cost.
The question: how do the advantages of bushings compare to the light weight and low cost of bushingless chains; and, in terms of incremental improvements in quality associated with high-end track components added on to the advantages of bushings, will a perceptive rider notice a difference in performance, smoothness, control and confidence?
A Sugino 75 crank with a 43t Zen Messenger 1/8 chain ring and a 19t Phil 1/8 cog (I like prime numbers) will give me the same gear inches (about 60) I presently ride with a 3/32 drive system.
I can't imagine a quieter nor smoother drive system than the one I presently ride, but, I'd sure like to get rid of the slack in my present system.
I feel the slack, now, and it annoys me.
In the end, how much would I pay in weight and money to get rid of the 1/2" slack in my chain?
Putting everything together, the issue has not to do with the dimensions of the chain, whether 3/32 or 1/8, but rather whether the chain has bushings in addition to the rollers.
The high-end 1/8 chains have bushings and rollers.
Low-end 1/8 chains and most, if not all, 3/32 chains, have rollers but not bushings.
Check out the pictures and the discussions on these following sites provided by a major industrial roller chain manufacturer:
https://chain-guide.com/basics/1-1-1-...ion-chain.html
https://chain-guide.com/basics/1-1-4-...ain-parts.html
The 1/8 chains with bushings have the advantageous qualities of greater lateral stiffness, less internal friction, greater flexibility, greater resistance to shock and external wear, and greater resistance (when properly cleaned and lubricated) to internal wear.
However, 1/8 chains with bushings pay for their advantages with significantly greater weight, complexity and cost.
The question: how do the advantages of bushings compare to the light weight and low cost of bushingless chains; and, in terms of incremental improvements in quality associated with high-end track components added on to the advantages of bushings, will a perceptive rider notice a difference in performance, smoothness, control and confidence?
A Sugino 75 crank with a 43t Zen Messenger 1/8 chain ring and a 19t Phil 1/8 cog (I like prime numbers) will give me the same gear inches (about 60) I presently ride with a 3/32 drive system.
I can't imagine a quieter nor smoother drive system than the one I presently ride, but, I'd sure like to get rid of the slack in my present system.
I feel the slack, now, and it annoys me.
In the end, how much would I pay in weight and money to get rid of the 1/2" slack in my chain?
I know sheldon has a piece about bushing vs bushing-less chains, and I think I agree somewhat with him. I would not use a bushing type chain on the road. For the simple reason that they are a major pain to keep clean, as the bushing will trap crud between it and the pin. Also when you re-lube, the bushing tends to seal and insulate the pin from getting lubricant. Now running a bushing type chain on the track, where the environment is relatively clean, perhaps it not so much a problem. A bushing-less chain which are the norm for 3/32" and highly available in 1/8",. FWIW here is an interesting article about chains, specifically breakage vs other components and bushing vs. bushing-less. The article quotes some highly respected industry insiders. https://www.63xc.com/gregg/gregchai.htm Additionally I have spoken to John Dacey as recently as this past month, I think he is still on the fence between bushing and bushing-less, but his recommendation for a good (maybe best) quiet chain for street use: KMC INOX S10 stainless 1/8" and bushing-less.
good luck
zac
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trans female, out and proud!
Hammer Nutrition 15% Referral Discount
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Last edited by zac; 09-26-08 at 08:23 AM.
09-27-08 | 03:25 PM
#30
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 179
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From: Tempe AZ
Bikes: Mondonico Road, Novaro Randonee Touring
I don't have any objective testing results, but an argument could be made for either being stronger: Eg., the shorter pin length on the 3/32" chain induces less stress on the side plate, therefore rendering it a stronger chain. On the flip side, a 1/8" chain with its heavier-bigger plates and pins just by sheer materials alone, render it a stronger chain. But now let's throw a monkey wrench into the equation and go with the mass to diameter ratio and which one ends up the strongest???? I have no idea. I have never snapped a chain either 1/8 or 3/32 that was due to chain failure and not my own error.
That all being said, I don't think the focus should be so much on the chain, neither size: 3/32 vs 1/8, nor type: bushing vs bushing-less; as opposed to the other components of the drivetrain. As has been said, the best/roundest/most precise rings are almost exclusively 1/8". If you want to run your chain tension high, you better be as close to perfectly round as possible, and at least it seems to me that 1/8" is the way to go there. When considering rings, as opposed to chains, size does matter. Given similar engineering and materials, a 1/8" ring will be stronger and hold its shape against deformation under load better than a 3/32" ring, I don't think there could be any argument there.
zac
That all being said, I don't think the focus should be so much on the chain, neither size: 3/32 vs 1/8, nor type: bushing vs bushing-less; as opposed to the other components of the drivetrain. As has been said, the best/roundest/most precise rings are almost exclusively 1/8". If you want to run your chain tension high, you better be as close to perfectly round as possible, and at least it seems to me that 1/8" is the way to go there. When considering rings, as opposed to chains, size does matter. Given similar engineering and materials, a 1/8" ring will be stronger and hold its shape against deformation under load better than a 3/32" ring, I don't think there could be any argument there.
zac
I agree with mihlbach that *any* reasonable bike chain has more than enough strength. But we need to know what strength means - basically, is says if a chain is hung from a fixed point, what weight will cause the chain to break or fall apart. To use an old saying, the weakest part is the weak link... Or in this case, the weakest part of the link. My guess is that the failure mode is deformation of the side plate where it is bevelled in to trap the roller. I think that bevel bends allowing the roller to come free. If I am right, then mihlbach's comment that chain width is irrelevent is true. Since the side plates are likely much the same thickness and material, both will fail at the same weight.
As for the comments about frictional losses, it might be 1/2 of 1 % of the total energy. In other words, who cares!
