Viva Italia

You've got the NJS bug. There's really no way to compare the craftsmanship of an NJS frame to something like a Bareknuckle or Leader HMT without actually spending time with the framebuilders and watching them work. I know that from making bags, the design is much more important than the actual assembly. Any $6 an hour operator working for a big production line could probably match or surpass my own skills. However, I know how to design, which is my next point:

You're trying to posture NJS as if all the frames were custom built, geometrically, for each rider. Panasonics, the most affordable NJS frames, coming in under $1,000 on import, have very limited customization options (just the paint, really). At that point, why not just get a full custom made locally? Getting the frame tailored to your own body is the most important point of spending a lot.

^ i suppose i should be more general than to say Keirin (implying NJS). im saying that given the price ranges that many prefab bikes are asking, you can spend a small amount more to get into a custom built frame. you're absolutely right, fit is most important, though, i wouldn't think anyone would/should buy a bike that doesn't fit. get sized, know your TT length ST length and preferences.

as for design, your counter-argument comes off like your implying that keirin frames aren't designed well? i dont think anyone would back that up. i mean, everyone has different needs bike-wise, and if a keirin frame isnt for you, its just not for you. as with cars, what matters most is that the thing is a solid working machine. looks come 2nd.

you say fit is most important, which it is, but aren't you coming to the defense of these midrange non customizes (size wise) prefab bikes? im having a custom built frame done in SF for sub $500. not a big company, just a solid framebuilder. if i wanted a keirin frame, i'd wait until i found one to my specifications and pull the trigger. (i found one on keirin blogspot for $390 plus shipping. im not rich, nor would i spend the $1000 for the panasonic (as there are plenty of non NJS more customizable builds sub $1000).

i could be mistaken, but you ride a leader right? i feel there are plenty of "better" bikes for the money you likely paid, but then again, if you love your leader thats all that matters. im merely pointing out that in situations like this, pride of ownership becomes apparent.


before i lose sight of my original point lemme reiterate it: a used keirin frame if it fits is a good buy at sub $700ish.

a brand new untested, vaguely detailed lugged bike from leader isnt at $800 if only because theres no track record for quality.

there are better bikes for your money. end of my posts in this thread.

No, not really. I guess I'm just trying to point out that most NJS frames you're likely to purchase are also "prefab" (as in, non-custom geometry, correct?). You're putting NJS frames on a pedestal that I think isn't fully warranted.

Sure.

i dunno where the conversation will actually go but i know a couple things.

1. cost vs cost (800$) i would rather have a mint used njs frame than that leader
2. njs frames were never 500$ unless you lived in japan or it was dented/rusted
3. panasonic pos frames are some of the only frames (njs) that i know of that aren't totally custom. most builders have a smaller "crew" if they aren't already a one man show.
4. the craftsmanship of NJS frames is pretty top notch. (lets leave bibaro out of this )
5. njs frames CAN be affordable if u know where to look.
6. custom framebuilders in the U.S can cost nearly twice as much as a custom from japan. so if i had 2000$ i would buy a plane ticket and go to kalavinka
7. people who argue about njs are tarck.

I thought NJS bikes were stamped so to advertise their superior craftsmanship, a certification of the rigorous japanese build specifications and their track sport. If so, isn't all this arguing moot?

dunno if your post was serious... but the njs stamp means that they meet a certain standard and that all the parts used in japanese keirin are somewhat the same. (give no advantage over another racers)

campy record njs stamped cranks are no better than non stamped ones...

So it's not a high standard?

i mean campy makes c-record cranks with a stamp and without....the stamp and the intended market are the only differences...

google japanese keirin... it's a betting sport so it would be unfair if racers started using full carbon frames and disc wheels.

the standard is to make sure all the racers have a "fair" chance at winning.

It is a high standard, but it's not the absolute best available.

It's a Standard. Doesn't matter if you think it's high,low,or medium.

What that represent's is equality in equipment.

Which leave's the outcome of the race in the hand's of the rider's.


NIHON JITENSHA SINKOKAI --google that



stop wearing your sister's pant's

Equality seems to imply quality. Sorry if such a simple question offended anyone. It's hard not to assume that all NJS **** isn't of some mysterious quality cause it's selling for a f'ing killing, and an NJS stamp seems to mark components up automatically. Usually a mark up in price indicates quality, but in this case I guess it's equality...

Stop acting like a pretentious fool.

Remember what a standard is? It's specifications for design. Think of NJS as your states DMV that licenses drivers or the Dept of public safety that inspects your vehicle annually to insure it is road worthy. Does that mean that my porsche is the same quality as my 12yr old honda because the DMV says they are both road worthy?

Also keep in mind that the NJS standard is designed to keep kerin racing a close shop. It inherently protects Japanese manufacturers from out of country competitors. According to a few websites the standards have not changed much since the late 50's so take NJS with a huge grain of salt.

I understand the equality and quality are not mutually exclusive, but I think it is still hard to argue against NJS stuff not being quality. When faced with a part-buying choice, you can probably assume the NJS part will be tested and true, compared to a random SOMA/Pake/etc part that came out of nowhere. Of course, NJS parts are not the best parts money can buy, but they're a decent baseline for time-tested quality.

yes i agree that njs dura ace cranks are better than some 14 yr old cottered cranks... but that's not what the conversation is about.

njs parts are indeed quality, but being njs stamped doesn't suddenly mean it's "better"

the only njs part that i've seen over the years to have no been up to par with the "standard" are bibaros and easton da seatposts.

this would be a good time to point out that Vivalos (bibaros) are an excellent buy for all you non keirin racing fixed gear riders looking for a good keirin track bike. a vivalo fork crown failed during a Keirin race and wooosh went their NJS status. You can get a Vivalo for almost half the cost of other Keirin frames. i guess the NJS stamp is a cause for inflated prices too. whoever said it above was right: NJS does mean a high standard of quality (which is nice in a sport willed with endless manufacturers of endless untested parts), but it doesn't mean "the best" or "better than non stamped parts".

The intent of NJS certification is to provide a level playing field for Keirin racing. In these races, the bikes are relatively unimportant; it is the rider who draws the bets. By making all the bikes conform to a single standard, the advantages conferred by the bike are minimized and those of the riders emphasized.

That's not to say it isn't a "high" standard. Keirin bikes must be well made so a frame or component failure doesn't ruin a race on which lots of money may be riding. But the intent of the standard is not to represent the "best possible" but simply conformity to a specific set of specifications.

ok lets look at keirin racing for a second. Their meant to go fast. Thats point A. Now basically in keirin their is almost every physical contact allowed like shoving and bumping as long as your hands are on the handlebars and ffeet on pedals, so point B they have to be tough.
so fast, and tough.
Each frame is custom handmade, so its not like all of leaders crappy welded frames but actually taken time to built.

NJS
NJS is a standard into which the kieren riders may ride safely and have a equal playing field. SO all NJS bikes must be able to be tough, and for practicality track geo to go fast. So in general NJS products may not be the fastest or toughest, butthey are both. Being fast and tough, because they need to be, because theyre nature of keirin racing.

Another point.
NJS frames cost alot not only because of hype, but because it is made handbuilt by master frame artisans. If you get a frame from them you KNOW its good quality.

and finally
look how many njs frames are for sale but dented and rusted, but plenty of people bomb with these bikes, just shows that indeed they are worth the money if they can go through that abuse and still be rideable in heavy conditions...

i dunno..i think besides the hype there is a big reason NJS is highly sought after, because it is basically the need of fixed gear riders...
tough
fast
and NICENICE

end rant..

Well...good to know all this NJS info... Did we decide which frame was mo' betta yet?

Bareknuckle..by far
if u ride street, this frame will last alot longer, its a stiffer ride, which means itll be faster off the line and a bit more uncomfortable, but the leader i dunno...i doubt itll outlast the bareknuckle and seeing the leader products from the past...i dunno. Their good for their price but over all suck compared to these giants...

Yup. The one that fits you and you like.

bk

hmm, a local shop has a leader for $550. only a good price since the owner buys the nice bikes in his size, which is smaller than the average bike sold.

he said that according to leader the main tubes are 853 and the seatstays/chainstays are 531 (he said the main tubes are 831, but i think he just got the numbers mixed up. as far as i know they don't make an 831)

leader just doesn't say which tubes because reynolds requires a license fee if you want to say anything beyond "built with reynolds tubing".

this is the response I got from Brian/Leader a while back when I inquired what the tubing was on their "premium" frame:

Tubing is Reynolds 853 in the top and down tube. rear triangle is Reynolds
525.

Geometry is 100% for track racing but due to the seat head and seat angles
many like them for trick street use.

straight form the horses' mouth

there is only one thing to know about NJS:

it gets you laid by hipster chicks.