I can't get into twisted spokes. They remind me of useless wirehangers.

it would appear Chub Hub is no more? RELoad dumped them from the looks of the new websote, and www.chubhub.com is gone. No new URL either.

I had a dream that I had a wheel with yellow rims and yellow twisted spokes. It was sweet. In that dream vomitron tried to adjust them and taco'ed my wheel. When I woke up, I beat him for it.

I still say they look sweet, though I lust over them no more.

Zed's dead.

Chub's were trash and a little searching here will reveal the multiple bad experiences that proved it. Too bad, so sad.

i dont understand if you are asking what a damping factor is, or what THE damping factor is for a twisted wheel, as in a numerical value. i cant give you a number, but ill tell you what a damping factor is in case you dont know....

a damping ratio is a unitless measure of a damped oscillation. when a wheel absorbs an impact/impulse, it ocsillates. a damped oscillation is a oscillation in which the amplitude decreases over time. when a system with a high damping ratio receives an impulse the amplitude decreases over a longer amount of time than a system with a low damping ratio.

citing gerd schraner from his book "the art of wheelbuilding" --

the twisting of spokes, instead of classic crossing work is a waste of time for road use. tests have shown that it results in a very unstable wheel. the lateral stability is about the same as a normally spoked wheel, but radially the wheel reacts so sluggishly that encounters with momentary radial overloads the highly praised damping effect is delayed. ... twisted spoking patterns are an additional mechanical disadvantage resulting from the extreme angle of the spoke directly at the nipple. (schraner, p. 60)

Citing Homer Simpson:

Tramampoline!?

i'm going to build at least one wheel out of some junk parts at my shop that has braided spokes.

then i'm going to put it on display as testament to my l33t wheelbuilding skillz.

A ratio of unitless measure? How could something be measured if there are no units to measure?


OK. How much does it oscillate? At what amplitude? At what frequency? For what duration? What mode do they oscillate... radially, laterally?


OK. So how long will any bicycle wheel, when it impacts a stationary object, oscillate. With the load of a bicyclist on it? And a compliant rubber tire between the rim and the ground?


OK. In the case of a bicycle wheel, on a bicycle, with a rider, suspended by a pneumatic tire, how long will the twisted spoke wheel oscillate compared with, say a 3x laced wheel?


The twisted spoke thing gets tossed around usenet every once in a while, with some adherents anecdotally claiming it makes for a stiffer wheel. And generally debunked by the likes of Jobst Brandt.

It seems for even the most oscillation prone wheel (and I'm not convinced that oscillation is at all a issue for any reasonably built wheel), the very weight of a rider and damping of a air filled rubber tire would make oscillation a non issue. With all due respect to Schraner, the "highly praised damping effect" sounds like pseudoscience.

A ratio of unitless measure? How could something be measured if there are no units to measure?


actually yes, in engineering there are lots of instances where dimensionless number appear. when you want to find your gear ratio, by dividing your chainring by your cog, that is a unitless value. the units cancel out. its pretty common


OK. How much does it oscillate? At what amplitude? At what frequency? For what duration? What mode do they oscillate... radially, laterally?


the ocsillate radially when absorbing impulses. asking for specifics like whats the amp, freq, etc it a bit rediculous. they can be determined if you have a laboratory take measurements, or you can simulate it on an assortment of programs.


OK. So how long will any bicycle wheel, when it impacts a stationary object, oscillate. With the load of a bicyclist on it? And a compliant rubber tire between the rim and the ground?


from my experience with mechanical/electrical control systems the settling time of damped oscillations will vary greatly from system to system. bridges for instance can have very high settling times with a high percent overshoot, while electrical and other mechanical systems will have a settling time in milli or micro seconds.


OK. In the case of a bicycle wheel, on a bicycle, with a rider, suspended by a pneumatic tire, how long will the twisted spoke wheel oscillate compared with, say a 3x laced wheel?


thats what this whole thread is about... dont you know? :)


The twisted spoke thing gets tossed around usenet every once in a while, with some adherents anecdotally claiming it makes for a stiffer wheel. And generally debunked by the likes of Jobst Brandt.

It seems for even the most oscillation prone wheel (and I'm not convinced that oscillation is at all a issue for any reasonably built wheel), the very weight of a rider and damping of a air filled rubber tire would make oscillation a non issue. With all due respect to Schraner, the "highly praised damping effect" sounds like pseudoscience.

whether oscillation IS an issue, its still there no matter what. but IMO theoretically the damping ratio is effected, but whether it relates physically, who knows. all i know is that twisted spokes look cool

Legalize it, pot heads areen't supposed to be that smart! I'll stick with 3X. I can't understand the why much less how to build twisted wheels. Twist joints, not spokes! I think they mostly show off builder's skill. Build 'em if you can, ride 'em if you want.

In other words, the stuff about damping factor is a red herring.

Unless it delivers less shock to the handlebars. That would be damping right? Ride one and find out. Let us know...

No I think he said, noone knows.... Which brings us back to the title of the thread. But maybe if he was dog-shooting edgy, then you would listen, especially after he kinda owned you like that.

certainly not. damping ratios certainly exists. pick up a book on control theory, then try and say that its a red herring. all i mean to say is that bc i neither have the means nor the money to experiment with twisted spoke wheels in a lab environment i cannot accurately say whether the change damping is negligible.

actually in ways it has been physically proven, just watch some trials MTBers hop off a 10ft drop. the wheel is more than happy to take the abuse again and again, bc the wheel is actually held at a standstill on impact bc of the increased settling time and the high percent overshoot.

i think i can write a paper out of this thread....

I thnk that MiamiJim or Rev. Chuck knows the technique for building twisted spoke
wheels.
Somewhere I recall seeing you need 3mm longer spokes than required for a 3x wheel.

Of course I could be wrong.

Marty

twisted messenger:

http://www.bikecult.com/works/archive/gttrackpit.html

Sorry young man.
 

I must say, you're completely wrong. Many free ride and downhill bicycles can be found with twisted spoke patterns; for the aesthetics and strength. Laced by an experienced wheel builder, a twisted lacing can and will last a long time from repetitive abuse. Check out Spoke Monkey, where they have expert knowledge on how this exactly will work.

What the hell... 4 years old? I've never seen such a necrobump.

I used to build up twisted spoked wheels for mtn bikes for cross country. Still riding a set that are 15 years old with no problems. I am building up a fixie now and am planning on doing a twisted spoke most likely. I will let you know how they ride at the end of the month when the build is complete. Maybe earlier if I can find someont to buy a bmx bike that I built up to ride with some of my old shop rats but never rode much.

Holy old thread batman!!





all be-it interesting...

wow this is an old thread. didnt realize it was a 4 y/o thread. :twitchy:

I'm curious if there's a place online to buy twisted spokes or if I must have them built by a local shop. Anyone know?

Brains...

Click dat