Sorry, Khuon-- you missed my point. The production of a bicycle and that of a car have radically different amounts of energy usage, esp. when you take into account the energy use after production (in use). You can't even begin to compare them, and you can't use one to excuse the other. If the scale were remotely comparable, maybe. But it's not. What you're left with is a weak, weak argument. Your point about computers is even weaker. You are stretching facts to fit a pre-determined argument. In addition, insisting your opponents meet a hypocrisy-free standard I doubt you yourself could reach is a diversion, and does nothing to further your argument (such as it is). Of course what we do has an environmental impact. Now: do we equate mowing your grass with a self-propelled (ie reel) mower with dumping tons of pollutants into, say, the Androscoggin river (real river, real pollution-- though it has since been cleaned, thank you EPA)? And if I do the first and complain about the second, I am a hypocrite. Nice, if shoddy, rhetoric.

You've also missed the central conciet of my argument-- that this entire talk of SUVs is a MacGuffin for larger problems. And it boils down to this: The automobile has an understandable utility, but that utility is vastly over-used by most people out there, including some reading this board, though I would not pre-suppose to know just who that might be. Might even be me, though my car had less than 200 miles put on it this past summer. I don't think SUVs should shoulder all the blame, they're more a symptom than a cause. They are aesthetically hideous for the most part, I'll say that. But so is most of what we produce.

Then the question becomes: what will we do? I haven't read anyone here proposing banning cars wholesale, but I do think some central cities may start considering banning individual cars in the next ten-fifteen years, probably for largely economic reasons (quickening the movement of goods, less lost time in traffic, etc.). Depends how bad the traffic becomes. I'm not convinced by the depletion of resources argument, this sort of Malthusian thinking has been around too long and been disproven too many times. Although Malthus may apply to the number of cars on the road.

Nor am I convinced by the sunny sorts who pretend to have read Bjorn Lomberg, either, and think we can just go on polluting happily. I've read Lomberg, and that ain't what he says.

Too often the decision to use a car or SUV comes down to the amorphous word "choice," which is used to abrogate responsibility and any sort of actual consideration of the effects of one's actions.

You have extended my arguments beyond the scope by which they were meant to address. My arguments were directed towards the one statement which implied that a hobby does not justify appropriate use. My counter is that a hobby can justify appropriate use. And yes that use has impacts that should be taken into account. There are many reasons to dislike SUVs and not all of them can be lumped together. There are also many reasons for which an SUV is warranted and all of them cannot be lumped together. In the end, none of us are guilt-free.


And I never disagreed with that point although I did not address it. It was never my intent to argue against that.


That's something else I will agree with. And if you have ever read any of my past posts concerning the matter you will see that I have similar views.


Choice is a bad thing when uncoupled from education and understanding. The problem as was so rightly pointed out by Tommy Lee Jones in the movie Men In Black is that while a person may be smart, people are stupid. However, there is no reasonable way to give choice to an individual without giving choice to a society. That's been tried before and let's just say that the results are unpleasent. It's true that we have to rely on the aggregate intelligence of everyone around us. It's true that it sucks. But that is the way it is unless you want to live in a world devoid of your fellow human beings.


BTW, in many of my arguments, I will point out the logical extremes because it IS about a matter of degrees and there IS a slippery slope. Nothing is cut&dry and where you draw the line is not where everyone else draws the line. How large is your grey area? Welcome to human nature.

Crack the whip and tighten the vinyl, I guess. It's your world.




Just a pound? Can you live on that?

Really? And you gather this insight from me only from what you read here? Is that what you choose to believe to chatise and classify me? That I'm an angry boy with issues? Can you face the fact that perhaps I have a valid opinion, and shockingly, perhaps a valid point? You tote your Subaru badge to far there guy.


I'd like to point out again, another one of your thinly vieled slams, yet you still claim the high ground. That above, is exactly what I'm refering too. Take a shot, go ahead. But be tall about it, ok?

A Jeep TJ, aka Wrangler, (1998) has a very short wheel base, (akin to a RAV4 I think) and a 6 cyl engine.

So, aside from your vieled shot at either penis, ego or how tall I am...

I don't drive a BIG SUV.

Keep them coming. You're just becoming more and more obtuse.

For me, I use the vehicle for it's intended purpose, so yes. I have used the 4WD for other purposes than my hobby, but that was not my intention, or is it planned to be used for that purpose in the future, so I won't claim that it's a "utility" vehicle for that.

But it's fun to pull out a tree with tires at 10 psi, lockers locked and in 4 low. Well, less fun, and really faster.

I'm pretty sure I just got some spam advertising a pill that will turn that into a big SUV. There's still hope Mr. Grumples...

Yup. There you go. Insulting agian. Not that I'm innocent, but you have justly earned the title of Assclown.

Will you PLEASE learn proper grammar before you come onto a FIXED GEAR forum, lecture its' members on the greatness of cars (gee, I wonder what kinds of opinions people who ride fixed are gonna have?) and then proceed to make an attempt at elevating your usage of English to come off as somehow more knowledgeable. It doesn't come off well to maintain a condescending attitude whilst incorrectly using the word there.


One last thing: F*CK cars and F*CK the people who advocate their usage. Lose the thesaurus and take a walk through east oakland.

me, i wouldn't take one step through east oakland without a thesaurus.

Um, I KNOW someone who bought one of these---a newly retired guy bought it to haul his brand new gigantic RV around. Not exactly the march of good ol' technology for the betterment of humankind.

Of course you're right, most will be purchased for work needs, but apparently not all.

Insult to injury: the guy who bought this thing has been a hard core bike tour monster for years. I am truly at a loss.

about the truck we've dubbed "Canyonero"

If people want one of these, they may as well be driving an 18-wheeler cab. It's about the same size.

If I see one of these things on the road in NYC, I'm taking a sharpie and writing "big, dumb and useless" on one side, "hit me" on the other.

Yeah, he's a real bright one.

Just for clarification, the above was a PERSONAL ATTACK by me.

I'll be sure to use the spell check next time and I still think cars are great. For the record, I never used the word "whilst" even once.


Just when I thought someone had finally come along with some command of the language. Not a real argument, mind you, but at least a command of the language.


I'll drive, thanks...

In an SUV...

With a thesaurus...

*Whilst* advocating their usage...

Lock the doors and roll up the windows, that way you'll be safe.

I'm definitely a fan of parallelism ;)

Thank God for that.

You could have said, "support those who do not drive cars and F*ck those who advocate their usage".

Alternatively you could have said, "F*ck cars and support those who do not advocate their usage".

You did neither. You took the high road and said, "F*ck cars and F*ck those who advocate their usage", and that is pretty flipping parallel in my universe.

BRAVO :D

I'll forgive you since it's a Jeep. Let me know when you need a hand, I'll bring my Toyota JRV.

I saw an H2 with spinners pulling a landscaping trailer today.

STATUS UPDATE:

We're quickly approaching parity with the Pissed Off SingleSpeeder thread. We've surpassed on # of posts but are lagging on views.

Yeah but I get the feeling the wheels are going to come off this sh*twagon any second...

Yes, it its stupid and depressing. Damn Trolls. Ya'll are ruining the forums. Thanks alot.

I bought new gloves and tools for my bike at the shop today.

And whilst is a word.

That's kinda interesting. Never really thought about that. I studied hymenoptera (ants and bees) for several years in my skooling days and always thought it was remarkable how clueless a single ant or termite was, yet as a colony they accomplished great things- 12 foot tall mounds, orientated to magnetic north with extremely effecient air exchange, the uber-precision of a honeycomb that is simutaniously manufactured by thousands of bees from different directions etc.
Bugs rule, people drool.

That's very interesting Bombusben. I've long considered myself a fan of hymen operas too.

Oh my god, the scary thing is that I was considering posting alternate ways to make the f*ck cars and blah blah statement but decided against it. Weird, it's like you read my mind! :eek:

Internal combustion engines burn mostly air. Oil is much cleaner and safer than burning coal or wood. That is why we use it, not much else on the horizon.

Oil is cheaper than soda, water, beer.

Why ?