New Cog - Your thoughts....
 

We all know that interbike is going crazy right now, and that a majority of the spiffy new schwag comes out at this time.

Our friends over at White Industries, the ENO guys, have produced a two-speed fixed cog. They have previously done this with a freewheel with some success and I have also seen some BMX variations of the concept.

My question to you guys is: What are your thoughts on this concept with regards to fixed? Mentally it seems ok to me to have the chainline a little off on your SS mtb, but the chainline is my obsession on my fixed gear. Especially for an item that is constantly rotating, typically under large forces.

What do you think?....

Perhaps it's meant to be used with a dual chainring setup?

Oh. Good call.

That would just be ugly IMO.

I saw the dual SS freewheel at the Tmobile tent in SF. Pretty cool, don't know the cost though.

Nah, if it's meant to be used with a double, I would think it would need more separation. After all, the front rings will be a full width apart--I suppose you could have the outer cog float in the air, leave room in the center to fit a lockring inside it and around the lockring threads. It seems like a stretch, but what do I know? The separation between the two cogs does seem pretty substantial.

I guess it might be nice for people like me who have a flip-flop fixed/free but would like to have another fixed option or for people who use the free but would still like another gear.

It'll be interesting to hear from someone who actually uses the thing.

Well, from the picture, It appears that the inner cog is very close to the end (towards the center of the hub) of the threads. At least I am assuming this from the picture's relative dimensions, I am also assuming it is slightly wider than a standard cog.

When you look at your normal track cog, the physical "cog" portion is on the farthest outboard side. That said, it would make sense that the two cogs would be biased equally off of center, hopefully giving you a marginally good chainline with either, but not a perfect one with any.

looks kinda neato, but why bother?

I pretty much agree. What I'd really like to see is for someone to come out with a two or three speed fixed gear hub.

One of the sillier fixed gear items I have seen.

After all that talk about perfect chainline ENO issues a cog that will give you the option of having a good chainline on one ring and a bad chainline on the other or two not so good/bad ones on both. Makes no sense in my world.

re-inventing the wheel.

Been done. The Sturmey-Archer ASC-3 was a 3-speed internally geared fixed gear hub (like the much more common AW-3 but fixed). I hear they're hard to find now. Personally, while it seems like a cool trick, it doesn't appeal to me. It's still a planetary gear which means quite a bit of mechanical inefficiency (relatively speaking) and besides, a large part of the zen of fixed gear is finding the gear that you can push under all or nearly all circumstances. For the zenness, it seems like a cheat to shift.

Genau.

I ran a 16/17 on the back of my Spot and I just put a 16/17 ACS freewheel on a bike for a customer. They make a hell of a lot of sense, because around here, 34/17 is great off-road, and 34/16 is great for spinning around town. Losen off the back wheel, drop the chain down, pull back and tighten and away you go. Very practical.

As for chainline, well, all chains are designed for sideways play, so it's not like it's a problem. Sure, a perfectly straight chainline is slightly more efficient, but to such a minute degree that you wouldn't notice. Well, I don't notice it on my MTB SS, but on a fixie with short stays it might me more noticable.

But not lately.


I don't buy into "Zen" arguements. I just want a fixed gear hub that can help me get where I want to go. There are times when one speed is a real hinderance. Changing gears without stopping is a good thing.

It hasn't been done lately because it was something of a cult item produced for British time trialers who were pretty much exclusively a fixed gear crowd. For most folks, an internally geared freewheeling hub is the most practical choice available, offering a durable, low-maintenance, easy-to-use multi-gear platform (unfortunately most people end up wit a derailleur setup). Fixed gear riding these days is the opposite end of the spectrum which says strip everything down to the bare essentials. Efficient, light-weight, simple, comprehensible.

An internally geared multi-speed fixed hub inhabits a world between the two that just doesn't appeal to either sufficiently. Unfortunately for you, you're the outlier.

It's one thing to be able to produce a double fixed cog which is basically a CAD file and a CNC mill--cheap to make even in small numbers--and a whole other thing to talk about something like the ASC--requiring many different parts, lots of assembly, etc.

Shecky

Once again check Sheldon Brown. He has a link to instructions on how to turn an AW hub into a two speed fixed. A home done job. If you are going to buy a used bike for the hub ( which you can do cheaper than buying a hub), remember, pre '73 40 hole, '73 on 36 hole.

Did they say what chain size this is meant for? The difference appears to only be about 3 to 3.5 mm, a 1/8 chain with 8speed parts (sorry, forgot the width) should give you enough float for the chainline issues.

IIRC, Sheldon Brown's hack wasn't actually tested. I think i'd prefer doing the Bendix two speed fixed conversion.

Bostontrevor Wrote -

"It hasn't been done lately because it was something of a cult item produced for British time trialers who were pretty much exclusively a fixed gear crowd."

A lot of early safety bikes had multiple cogs on the back that you shifted when you got to a hill by stopping, losening the back wheel, putting into an easier ratio, then off you went, up the alps. I understand this was a common thing in some of the early races like the Tour De France etc, before the advent of the derailleur. I don't think there was any 'cult' or 'timetrial' aspects about it.

"Fixed gear riding these days is the opposite end of the spectrum which says strip everything down to the bare essentials. Efficient, light-weight, simple, comprehensible."

Naw, fixed just practical on one hand because a lot of couriers/urban hip types aren't that well off, as well as it being a nice little niche people can belong to an act all cool and stuff. :) One gear centainly isn't time efficient, converting an old track frame made from 531 or Oria or some other old crap steel sure ain't light, and as for 'simple and comprehensible'......well, err......hands up anyone who rides fixed or SS coz they couldn't understand how to operate gears? :D

I think the two cog cog is just something that will appeal to those who need it or already do it anyway in some form or another. The freewheel version for SSing definitely has more appeal, but if it's something that you don't think is any benefit, don't need it, or don't like the idea of running an 8 speed chain, stick to what you got I reckon.

As for me, I'm petitioning for a 16/17t freewheel, but everyone at White must be at freakin' Interbike.

There's a guy on our saturday rides that has two cogs on one side of his hub. Don't know the rhyme or the reason to it. I'll ask him this weekend.

Seems to me that if you picked your two front rings right, you could have the dual fixed cog in the back and have the same chain length, thus obviating the need to loosen the rear wheel at all (like, maybe, 42x17 and 44x15). If the chainline weren't too bad (as many have mentioned), this would be a nice way to have a very multi-purpose, multi-terrain fixie.

Before the advent of the derailleur. That is to say, before multigear, freewheeling bicycles were mass produced. When the ASC came out in the mid-50s, that was not the case.

I could equally say that I'm upset that there aren't any reciprocating drive systems on the market. Cultish? Hardly, before chain drive was developed, the velocipede used such a thing.

Sure it is. My trip to work is a 5 mile, 20 minute commute. I make it faster on my fix than I do on my geared bike. Why? I don't waste time shifting. It may sound stupid, shifting only takes a split second... Unless you miss your shift, or you forget to properly downshift before a light, or don't have time to, etc.

And do you suppose the people who own multiple bikes (I just read a post where someone has a stable of 14) don't have enough money to get a geared ride? I can go to Craig's List ride now and buy a complete geared machine for less than a fix/SS buildup unless I happen to be lucky enough to come into a frameset for free.

Operating and understanding are two different things. How many people can operate a computer? How many understand how it works?

Actually, you can 'fix' an old Bendix two speed hub. See here . As for the inefficiency, most internal gear hubs have one gear that is direct drive. Which means if you pick the right chainring and cog to make that gear your most used, you don't lose anything. As for the zen thing, different strokes for different folks. Maybe it's blasphemy for some, but for others it sounds like a great solution.

Agreed on all points. I was simply saying that to me it seems like missing the point.

But I'm intrigued. The ASC does apparently have a direct drive gear. I assumed that was simply a 1:1 ratio but that there would still be some sort of drag associated with the planetary gearing. I mean, I guess the hub body woud rotate at the same rate as the drive sprocket, so everything would be relatively stationary.

I dunno, I guess I don't understand enough about internally geared hubs (though I can operate one!;) )

what's the point......who needs more than one gear anyways **********