Tandem2

I think I may have been following that same ebay listing, Orange county cycles had a L/S but it was non disc and maybe a tad on the Large size.

colotandem

Yeah, I think that's the one. The non-disc (130mm spacing) and 1 1/8 head tube would have likely been a deal killer for me. But at that price, I think it might not be a bad way to get into a high quality racing bike!

budhaslug

As the owner of a used Calfee (thanks twocicle), they do occasionally show up, but I was watching adds for all sorts of high end tandems for 1-2 years before a suitable one at the right price showed up and I jumped at it. It worked out great as the fit happened to be close enough to perfect and I was able to just buy the frame and then separately buy parts within a budget by searching out lots of deals over the course of 6 months (a.k.a. the average MN winter).

Many of the high end tandems that get sold used go for extremely high prices and frequently go through bike shops that either bought them from the owner or are the only owner. There was a barely used Lightspeed tandem, for instance, that was posted on various sites for about 2 years running going for $10-15k... wasn't worth it when you could start from scratch for about the same price. I tried to talk the owner down on price and they turned me down flat.

If you have the time to wait, like we did, I'd say keep your eyes open and something will eventually pop up. In the meantime, start slowly putting away some money for a new tandem so if nothing shows up, you can eventually upgrade knowing that you did your best to buy used first.

Tandem2

Timing really is everything, not to mention finding a used bike or even frame with the standards I am looking for.
I am also looking starting from scatch with a new frame.
Congrats on your new to you Calfee.

TooMany

I know of one Calfee that's probably for sale, but you would have to contact the shop here in Portland, OR: West End Bikes. I have no idea if they would ship it. I considered buying it while shopping around, but decided to go new instead. They said that they would make me a 'great deal' although it wasn't ever specified. It has a fairly standard Ultegra 6700 10 speed group on it if I remember correctly.

Tandem2

Thanks for the lead, I will contact them tomorrow.

twocicle

Just be aware, Calfee tandems are all custom ordered. Meaning, be sure to review every aspect of the frame and fork and determine if the build fits your needs.

With that in mind, Calfee is very good at doing modifications to existing frames. Sometimes this can be economical, or sometimes it makes more sense to get your own custom frame built.

Caveat intended more towards the uninitiated.

Alcanbrad

I may have missed if this was mentioned in this thread, but the Tandemseast website is showing a "barely used" Calfee Tetra in their bike classified section.

Tandem2

Yes, unfortunatley for this team it is a 22x18.
Great option for a Larger team.

LelandJT

Since I work for Santana my opinion won't mean much to you but I think you'll find that others agree: The Beyond is the same weight as a Calfee Dragonfly and rides nicer, more vibration and impact absorbtion. A used Beyond in your size at a reasonable price is a lucky find.

DubT

Mighty strong statements, and what OBJECTIVE data do you have to back up your claim? Sounds like marketing hype to me!

LelandJT

Those don't sound strong or like marketing hype to me. The scale says the frames are the same weight. Riders who have been on both told me the Beyond damped bumps better. Have you heard otherwise? I didn't say it was 112% better, that would sound like marketing hype. Do you not agree those two frames are very close competitors, and if you consider one an upgrade the other is too? If you were searching for a used Calfee and found a Beyond in your size would it not interest you?

mtseymour

The Beyond is certainly a very fine option. However, Santana will be more credible if it spends more time explaining its technology than criticizing the competition.

As for the Beyond's Exogrid/Isogrid technology, I wonder if time has passed it by. If you look at Vyatek's website, it appears that most of its "Strategic Partners" are either defunct or has dropped the Exogrid/Isogrid technology. Titus Cycles is out of business, and Wilson has dropped the Vyatek technology with its recent tennis rackets.

CF frames that don't use a metal matrix/grid can be built for any ride characteristic and shape. Examples are high-end models like Pinarello Dogma, Colgnago C60, Specialized Tarmac, Trek Madone, Cannondale Supersix, Cervelo R5, Calfee Dragonfly, and Landshark tandem. Other frame-builders would license or copy the Vyatek design if it provided superior ride characteristics.

DubT

Riders saying that it damped bumps better is still subjective, how much better? What tires, what seatposts, how much air pressure etc.

I would probably not be looking for a used tandem. I bought a used steel Santana 5 years ago and we liked riding tandem so much that we ordered a new Calfee Tetra frame and Enve fork, and then I built it. I would not be interested in another Santana new or used at this time. Too many quirks for my taste.

LelandJT

I don't think I was criticizing. I was stating that they are comparable frames. If someone favorably compared the new Bianchi to the Tarmac and said it was supposed to damp vibration better are they criticizing the Tarmac?

The Viatec stuff is because Santana bought the patents, equipement to make tubing, and all the rights. We make tubing for two high end custom single bike companies but not all those other former "partners".

Your list of carbon bikes is a mix of monocoques and lugged. Your statement about carbon optimization refers to monocoque (unlesss you just meant to the extent of speccing custom butted tubes). I don't doubt that a monocoque tandem would be sweet but no one makes it. There's a guy who has a one-off based on the Cervelo Rca. I saw it and its awesome. The frame would cost at least 20 grand.

Tandem2

To be honest, I have not really been looking at Santana due to the rider feedback I have gotten. They look like sweet bikes, but I am leaning toward quicker vs stable handleing. Having said that, there is a sweet Ti Santana on eBay I will inquired about today, gotta keep an open mind.

mtseymour

You don't seem to get it. When you say that the Beyond "rides nicer" and has "more vibration and impact absorbtion (sic)" than the Dragonfly, how is that not a criticism? Or is that your form of flattery.

I'm not interested in a Calfee vs Santana debate. I readily accept that the Beyond is a very fine option. However, Santana actually erode its brand when a company representative denigrates another brand. It's different (and acceptable) when owners describe their brand preferences. I don't recall Bianchi, Specialized, Pinarello, Cervelo, etc criticizing other brand in their ads or web postings. Maybe it's just me, but I admire these companies because they can promote their technology and designs without knocking alternative brands.

Customization is not limited to monocoque frames. Tube-and-lug frames are very close to a monocoque design and allow Calfee, Landshark, and Parlee to easily customize the ride, geometry, and weight for each customer. The point is that the vast majority of cutting-edge frame designs don't need the isogrid/Exogrid technology.

twocicle

An interesting observation is that I have never seen or heard of any stokers foregoing suspension posts on any Santana model. Why is that?

We previously had a Santana, not a Beyond, that did very much require a sus post. When we got our first Calfee, my stoker readily stated her ride was perfect without a sus post. Same saddle, etc. We know quite a few other Calfee teams that have done the same.

Other than ride characteristics, design is another major issue. Santana's very wide 160mm rear spacing can pose a physical issue for stokers given its Q-factor. These days it is not uncommon to see fat bikes far exceeding that spacing, so obviously there are riders that can adapt to it. However, Santana has done away with the option to go to a more normal single bike stance. It can be a critical make/break point. In our case, my wife sustained severe tendon injuries (and surgery) from riding in a tripod stance, something that had and has never occurred on a normal road or mtn bike setup. Needless to say, she is oh so happy we figured out the problem and we were able to resume tandeming together.

Trsnrtr

My wife promptly made me remove her suspension post on our AL Sovereign, the harshest riding of all Santanas. We had 13,000 miles on it when we sold it. So whats your point?

Seriously, not every stoker needs a suspension post on a Santana.

Disclaimer: We now own a Co-Motion Supremo.

colotandem

Good stuff right here!

twocicle

Based on our experience, my observation from gatherings and friends across the continent, you are the exception not the norm.

Is your Co-Motion Supremo shod with a suspension post or not?

Trsnrtr

Of course not. If my wife didn't use one on the AL Sovereign, there's no reason to use on on our Supremo which has carbon seat posts.

Chancy

Folks,

I don't think LelandJT is criticizing Calfee at all with his comments. If a Ferrari tops out at 193 mph and a Lamborghini does 204 mph and has a touch more padding in the bucket seats than the Ferrari then yes, the Lamborghini is faster and more comfortable than the Ferrari. That's not to say the Ferrari is by any means SLOW or uncomfortable. Rich at Gear-ToGo Tandems had the opportunity, a few years ago, to put some miles on a Calfee and a Beyond at the same time. I am going from memory here for this was posted on Tandem@hobbes and Alex Whetmore's search engine is defunct so I can't quote verbatim, but Rich said they were both very nice bikes, the Calfee was a little "stiffer, quicker" and the Beyond a little more comfortable. Emphasis on "a little."
Regarding suspension seatposts:
We have owned Santana Arrivas (steel with aluminum seatposts), coupled and not, and have just recently received our new Beyond (carbon seatposts). We have ridden tandems for 15 years now and my wife/stoker has ridden without a suspension for the last 13 years. I know of two other stokers riding Santanas (Team Ti and a Sovereign) without suspension seatposts as well, and I don't ride with other tandems much (not by choice)! I suspect once teams have graduated to premium tandems (Santana Team bikes, Calfee, Paketa, Landshark, etc.) they use suspension posts even less.
Ride what enjoy and enjoy what you ride,
Charlie

P.S. Yes, Bill McCready can be a much at times, but I appreciate a person who speaks his mind and believes in his product. Bill just says what he thinks without being politically correct. That doesn't make his bikes any less than the good product that they are.

mtseymour

I don't think that Ferrari or Lamborghini has ever commented publicly on the other's performance (eg. "we're faster", "more comfortable"). If they did, I would expect some good numbers to back it up. It's great when a builder offers advice or answer questions about their products. Santana has its share of good ideas but it undermines its credibility when it's so hyper "partisan". BTW, we've owned a Santana and enjoyed it a lot.

Tandem2

Has anyone kept track of Calfee Tetra frame updates year to year?
How would a 09 frame differ from a 16?
I understand their was a change to a new tube supplier?
I read tandem geeks eccentric issues, was that still an issue in 09?