Murrays

Can you elaborate? The V-brakes on my speedster seem to work very well.

-murray

teamawe

Riding a co-motion with dual calipers the bike stops virtually the same as my single bike (just feels like Ive gained 50 or so pounds, but otherwise the characteristics feel the same). I have riden two tandems with v-brakes, one co-motion (My GF's speedster that we are changing over to dual calipers) and an inexpensive Univega. Both of the V-brake bikes seriously lack stopping power compaired to the 2 co-motions I have captained with dual-calipers and the 2 I have stoked on.

And just in case, yes they are adjusted correctly, the pads are new-ish, making good contact ect. As for maintenace, well the dual calipers are rather like your single bike. You put em on, get em adjusted then replace them when they are worn.

I'm not alone around here in thinking this, we all prefer the dual calipers. But, if V-brakes work for you, cool. =)

Doggus

You all are about to talk me into trying a Co-Motion. I wish I could compare a Co-Motion against a Burley. The Trek is here for us to try. I actually contacted the local tandem club here (Double Dates?!?) and one of the responses was simialar to 'Why do you want to ride a Burley'.

Not sure how to take that response. Can't tell if they thought Burley was scrap or just wondering why I was so deadset on a Burley.

Michel Gagnon

The sidepull brakes (a.k.a. calipers) are better for brake modulation, so they are great for peloton riding. However, cantilever brakes and v-brakes are easier to use if you want to brake quickly. If the Co-Motion you tried with v-brakes lacked braking power, I suspect the brake pads were mis-adjusted, or the return springs were too tight, or the cable was squeezed somewhere. Good-quality pads help. Replacing the stock Avid pads with Kool Stop pads gives a whole new meaning to "braking efficiency".

As for "braking power", strictly speaking, it's just a matter of the rubber pads and the rim. Even with 1970 centrepull brakes, you can brake as hard as with modern brakes. You just need to squeeze the levers hard enough, probably to the point the cable might break.

TandemGeek

In an effort to take any fuzz off the ball on steering geometry on Burley I went to the source... Burley.

According to the nice folks in Oregon who produce the value-packed Burley tandems, their sport package (standard road tandems) use 55.5mm off-set/rake forks with an axle-to-crown height of 403mm yielding a nice and conservative 46.2mm of steering trail. The race package with the new Burley-specific True Temper Alpha Q, canti-compatible carbon forks have 47mm of off-set/rake with an axle-to-crown height of 395mm yielding a more aggressive 54.3mm of steering trail... something Burley's product manager described as being "a bit more nible and quicker at speed" than the standard sport package.

For reference purposes, Santana and Trek share the same head tube angle (73 degrees) and use forks that also have axle-to-crown heights of ~395mm - 400mm with 55mm of rake yielding similar steering trail to the Burley sport (standard) package. Co-Motion's standard geometry is also based on a 73 degree head tube but uses a fork with ~387mm axle-to-crown height and 50mm of fork rake.

The wheels, tires, and frame designs will somewhat alter the individual handling characteristics of these different brand's various tandem offerings but, in general, the Burley "race package" should handle more like Co-Motion's standard tandems and their "sport package" will handle more like Santana's and Trek's standard tandem offerings. Personally, I think Burley has done what Santana and Co-Motion have both needed to do for a long time which is to acknowledge that different teams may find they have a preference for a different handling package and offering products that will meet their individual needs/preferences.

FWIW: We spent the week riding with a BF list member team who just took delivery of their new Burley Rivazza with the "Race Package". They were very pleased with the bike and, to be honest, if I was in the market for a go-fast tandem I'd be hard pressed to pass on the Burley... an incredible value for a really nice package. I'm sure they'll post their own review in time.

zonatandem

Steel is real. Alu is stiff. Ti is neater. Carbon fiber is the future . . . and the future is here, now!
Have ridden and owned all those materials. Our money, and butts, are on a c/f tandem!

K&M

Thanks, TandemGeek, for an extremely informative post!

When we were shopping for a tandem, we were informed by a couple of LBS "experts" that since we liked the handling of the CoMo we tried, we should buy a Burley (even though there were no Burleys to test ride). They told us that Burley had more aggressive steering than Trek or Santana because they used "the same steeper head tube angle used by CoMo" (leading to more trail). Yet, when I researched the actual figures, I found that Trek, CoMo and Burley all claimed a 73 degree head tube angle (couldn't find any figures for Santana). I could not find any info from the manufacturers on actual trail (which, of course, is influenced by many factors besides head tube angle) .... and trail, of course, is only one factor in how a bike steers and handles.

Meanwhile, on this forum and in other places I kept reading that the trail on Burleys was the same as on Treks and Santanas (i.e. less than on CoMo). I finally decided that trying to figure out how a bike would handle without riding it was a hopeless task, but ordered a Burley anyway because the price was just too good.

When we finally got to ride our Burley (Rivazza with race package), we found, to our delight, that it was definitely more nimble than the Treks we were used to, although not necessarily as nimble as the CoMo we'd taken a quick test ride on.

So anyway, it is nice to know that we are not entirely crazy and that our Burley's superior handling can, at least partly, be explained by the fact that it DOES have more trail than the Treks we were used to ... even though many other Burleys may not. It also shows that the LBS "experts" may have been correct in their conclusion, even though their explanations were off the mark.

Your research should also be of great interest to those trying to decide whether to go with the carbon fork option when buying a Burley since it appears that, due to the difference in rake, the carbon fork may significantly change the way the bike handles (which may be either good or bad, depending on the buyer's preference for nimbleness vs. stability).

I agree with you that offering this choice is something that manufacturers other than Burley ought to consider, but I also think that Burley might do more to make people aware that using the carbon fork will create somewhat more aggressive (and less stable) steering. The choice isn't very useful if people don't know they're making it and base their fork decisions purely on weight, dampening characteristics, etc., which is what I imagine most Burley customers are doing today.

Denis (Brazil)

I have read tru the various posts, they are VERY illustrative, thanks Tandemgeek the Georgian and Stapfam the Brit, for their precious inputs !

Here in Brazil we simply don't get these brands, Santana, CoMo's and others. Expensive and tricky to import. Once imported, I would say that claiming "warranty" in case something goes wrong, would be a pain YKW.

I gather that the only makers that really bring tandems to Brazil are C'dale, KHS (but they are SO unreliable...) and Trek.

This is to say, that some of the things you guys claim to be a decisive factor in choosing a proper tandem bike, are even more sensitive when viewed from my end of the cable.

From the "warranty" standpoint, I would take a Trek, for it is the one with the far best servicing, retailer chain in this country. C'dale comes second but not too far behind.

I was offerred a KHS by the local agent, price was just alright, but they never sent the bike down to the my local store. Funny guys.

But, as already mentioned in this topic, we have to give credit to the bike "we have".

In my case, I found a tradicional manufacturer in São Paulo, who delivers a decent "copy" of what seems to be a C'dale geometry, in "real steel" (I would not risk calling it Chrome... lol). The whole thing fits the bill. It takes us from point "A" to "B".

Surely as a Sherman Tank...

It was ONLY when I examined some brochures kindly sent by Santana, and perused over some other tandem manufacturers websites, that I have "realised" that I have been running a "considerable risk" in riding such a creature.

It is true, that if you go downhill at 50MPH or more, then you don't want your tandem bike to fall apart ! Or run out of brakes in the process of trying to stop it.

The topic is about "choosing". My situation is all about "limitations".

If I had the choice, of course I would like to have more-per-quid or bucks. So let's see what I can do to help in this matter.

Here's what I understood were the most sensible advices already given in this topic (and would be my own personal check list) :



1. Are you a begginer? If not, jump to square 6, you belong there.

Beginners, consider testing a fair number of bikes, but settle for the less expensive... unless your pocket knows no end ... but then you would be missing the fun part of the process !



2. Between the "less expensive's", consider the one favoured by the market (best resale price). If you upgrade, you would like to throw your used bike in the deal wouldn't you?



3, Better still, search for some store-owner who would take your bike back in a future upgrade, at a fixed depreciation rate or fixed price.

Silly boys, of course it is the same shop where you will BUY the tandem in the first place, unless you want to play dice with the future.

The magic moment in which you wave goodbye to your money, is preceded by that other magic moment in which you can try have the shopowner to swear something to this effect ("how much will you pay for this bike in case I come back in a year or so and want to upgrade?" That's a good starting question).

It is no impossible task. My local shop has this policy, pity they don't carry tandems...



4. Number 2 and 3 already are the answer in choosing the material (Alu vs Chrome etc.). Let the market decide. A beginner is a begger in all and every sense (a beginner in want to spend his money too fast, is a fool... a fool and his money, they soon get part ... it goes back to the basic principles anyway).

Don't worry, later on you will become a chooser, by mere practice.



5. When in doubt about two good brands, consider how much of knowledge you have over these two (or more) brands.

If you don't have enough expertise to decide for yourself, let the market decide for you, as the market has been always wiser than anyone else. If the market is not "wiser", well, at least it is the one who will buy your bike when you want to sell it... so you should hear it first place...

If you want to gather experience on a particular brand, get back to square two, the only difference is that you will start by the lower-rank options of that particular brand you want to know more about (or you have soft eyes for, we all have our Ferraris and Porsches).

Take notes, make your own check lists, participate in the forums, try a test-drive whenever possible... there's SO MUCH of education available, a click away from us... and don't be fooled by the marketing appeals, or the "status" attached to some high-street names, unless you want to keep up with the Jonesis (and pay the relevant tuition fee).



6. You have finally reached the pinnacles of expertise in all Tandem brands, makes and models.

Congrats!

THEN you are free to make your own mind up, spend as much as you want (have an eye out for those all-carbon tandems the big boys of this industry are releasing now... that's what I call big-buck call)

But then, at this point you either don't need to buy a bike already with an eye out for the possible re-sale price (in which case you can surrender entirely to your own taste and personal eccentricities, you have dug your way up the ranks, and your money is your money, you are entitled to do whatever you want) or you are so experienced in the business of tandems that you will find it so natural to pick up the bike which holds the best of both worlds (best resale price AND bearing the highest rate of qualities you seek in a tandem bike).


Let's have a beer?

Shifty

There is a guy in Eugene (where Co-Motion is made) who has a used Co-Motion Java tamdem for sale. An advantage to buying here is the opportunity to have a factory inspection before purchase. If you'd like to contact the seller for information, PM me and I'll send his email to you in a reply.

paednoch

You will only get a good tandem if you spend some money IMHO. That being said....I have been a cyclist for around 20 years. I have never ridden a finer handling bike single or tandem as my Co-Motion. I have ridden a santana and it is comparable, I have ridden a borthwick and it was nice but not as silky as my co-mo, The trek was nowhere near as nice and Neither was the Cannondale. For a few hundred more you get much nicer bike. Yes perhaps I am a co-mo snob but its the tandem that made me that way. My CO- MO is a much smaller company allowing them to focus on detail and Much higher quality. Trek is a very large bicycle company that Is more into mass production. They are a bicycle company that got into the Tandem scene later. CO-Motion started out as Tandem company that is now making small numbers of singles. you can buy frozen bagels at the grocer or you can go to the bagel shop and buy them from the bagel maker. Which tastes better? But which costs more?

galen_52657

This is something that could be debated until the cows come home. The cost difference between frozen bagels and fresh bagels is not very much - dozen fresh cost 5 bucks, half dozen frozen cost $2.30. Fresh tastes better the first day, frozen taste better the 3rd day..

Anyway, there is a point with all things where diminishing returns come into play. If the Trek and the Co Mo had the exact same components and the Co Mo was only a few hundred more, than it might be a sale. But if it was a thousand more? Most likely not, with me anyway.

My observations tell me that hardly any team is really going to barrel down hills at 60 MPH on these things (TandemGeek accepted) and fewer still are going to race them. Most tandems get adorned with funny little personalized stuffed animals, bags and racks and are used to meander around the hinterlands. If you need the status symbol, then you know what you are going to buy anyway. I have noticed an inverse relationship between tandem cost and team speed. Seems the slower teams ride the more expensive bikes and the faster teams have middle-of-the-range bikes. Of course there are exceptions, but, the slowest team I have ever been on a local tandem group ride with had a $10,000 Calfee. They were 45 minutes behind the group after 25 miles. One of the faster teams had a 12 year old steel Santana with couplers. A weak rider on the team is going to negate any performance difference in the bike many times over.

If you are on a budget or are not going to ride the bike more than once a week or so, don’t sweet the details. Test ride it. If you like it and like the dealer, buy it.

Just my .02

Trsnrtr

Speak for yourself.

I feel cheated if my tandem ride for the day doesn't break 50 and truly depressed if we don't hit 40.

Denis (Brazil)

Galen, I liked your approach,

Shifty

You could fly out to Eugene for a few days, Co-Motion and Burley factories are just a few blocks from each other, and you can test both. They are both most welcoming, and the opportunity to talk with both companies, ride the bikes and compare would help you decide. You could also have them fit you and your co-pilot. Test rides could include any type of terrain you chose, we have it all.