Fastskiguy

My wife and I are planning on buying a new tandem over the winter and our local dealer carries Santana and Burly. We are looking for a bike to take on trips, hoping to get the thing to Italy for a tour in June. We have ridden my parents old (1993?) steel burly (mtb) tandem a fair bit this year and are ready for something fancy (or at least more fancy). Our local shop doesn't have any tandems in stock but we managed to take a ride on a Santana Niobium and Burly Rivazza. We weigh about 330# or so, we actually like the aluminum frame better and it was waaay less expensive.

Our big "problem" (maybe?) is that we want to take this on trips and Burly doesn't make a "sectionable" tandem. I figure a Santana Sovereign SE with the couplers will be about 5700 and the box about 800. 'Course I've gotta have the reynolds fork and the disk brake so that's another 700. And the XL size requires taking the fork off to get it into the box so they recommend a King headset for another 125. So, being the XT/Ultegra rider that I am, I'm freaking out about this 7300$ bike when we really liked the Burly Rivazza that cost a lot less (not sure of the MSRP...but it's a lot less).

Now I would really like to buy my bike from my local shop, I just really dig'em there. And I can appreciate a nice ride, I've got a quiver of single bikes and have been riding for 14 years (mtb, ss, fixie, road, TT, cross, freeride, and the "trainer bike" that lives a life of hell in the basement). Is this a "you get what you pay for" situation or is this a "you're gonna really pay a premium to ride the top name stuff and be able to take it with you" situation?

OK, sorry it's getting so long but one other thing-what about traveling with a non-stowaway type bike? What if you can't speak a lick of Italian? And what about putting the "taken apart" Santana into a single bike box (that we already own)? Is that possible? Or should I just get the Santana and forget it? Thanks in advance for all of the help

AndyGrow

If you've got the money, I think you have your answer. I'm not as experienced as 99% of those one here, but I think you answered your own question(s).

Get the Santana with the S&S couplers. If that's the only way you can travel with the tandem...well...there ya go!

merlinextraligh

you can travel with a full size, non S&S coupler tandem, we took our burley duet to france, and have a nice bike pro USA case for a full size tandem. The major problems with it are: 1) you can't get it on the high speed trains, unless you check it as freight, 2) getting around by taxi is an issue (we actually had to get 2 taxis in Paris to get to the train station, one for us and one for the bike), and 3 it won't fit on some smaller aircraft (read commuter). If you're only going to travel with it occassionally, n are willing to put up with a little hassel its doable.

galen_52657

I have no direct experience but I have been told by other tandem couples that there are soft cases available that will fit a tandem with both wheels off the bike. If you don't divulge that a tandem is in the soft case, than you won't get charged extra by any airlines that charge extra for that sort of thing. If airline folks asks, just say 'its a bike'. Most would not know a single from a tandem anyway.

Once you get there, I would guess you would have issues noted by merlinextalight.

Santana is a premium brand and you will pay a premium price but all the coupled tandems are more. If you are only going to travel once a year overseas, is it worth the extra money to you? Also, the hassle of reassembling the tandem once you get there may offset the hassle of futzing with a regular tandem.

TandemGeek

Where do you live, e.g., nearest big city/state?

How often do you think you'll be travelling with the tandem via public transport?

Do you need an XL or are you borderline for a Large? It's worthwhile to note that there are two Large S&S tandems -- a Co-Motion Speedster & a Bushnell -- listed for sale here: https://www.tandemmag.com/classified/

Without getting into your finances, it suffices to say that dropping $8k on a "recreational vehicle" can rock some people's world whereas others just swipe the card or write the check and smile. If you are in the latter category, I don't think you can go wrong with the Santana. While most other builders are not inclined to offer Al S&S tandems given the need to be somewhat more delicate in their handling and potential challenges/expense associated with repairs of any travel related frame dings, Santana seems to sell a few of them and I've not heard of any problems. As for the cases, their oversized super-case is slick, but I'm still not sure if it's easier to manage that the two standard size S&S cases. We use a hardcase for our frame components & handlebars and put the wheels, boxed cranks, & seats w/posts attached in a softcase. Also, as MerlinXLight notes, given that S&S coupled tandems have only been on the market about 10 years, there have been a lot of folks travelling with uncoupled tandems for a long time.

Rather than going through all the pros & cons, here is a link to a search of the archives for threads where "S&S travel tandems" appear where you can leisurely peruse what's already been written, some in great detail and with links to other resources: https://www.bikeforums.net/search.php?searchid=1844040

Finally, and this gets back to my first question, while I don't think you can go wrong with a Santana Stow-away, given the amount of money you're about to invest in your tandem it may be well worth your time to visit a tandem speciality dealer who sells Co-Motion tandems, perhaps Bilenky or one of the other builder's who offer S&S tandems just so you can have something to compare the Santana and your Burley experience to. Each of these builders uses their own philosphy regarding materials, geometry, and fit and you might be surprised to find that the frame material can be least important thing in your decision process. Then again, it makes the decision process a bit more complex which brings us back to the economic factor: you can always buy the Santana and ride it until you decide you'd like to try something else.

Fastskiguy

Well this is all good stuff, I tend to think around in circles with bike decisions like this, maybe it's part of the fun.

We live 90 minutes from Chicago O'hare so getting on big jets to wherever is no problemo, we prolly will lug the thing with us 1-2 times per year.

Really it's not even the domestic trips that have me worried, it's the overseas stuff-small cars and can't speak any language except *maybe* english, heh. The bikepro case would save 2000$ on the bike and 1# of weight and you guys are right that there would be some futzing putting the thing back together again.

I'll keep churning on the decision and will probably have to ask some more opinions. Thanks for the info so far

zonatandem

If you buy the 'tana Stowaway you can buy one case and pack the whole bike in it (but it will NOT fit in a single bike hardcase). The latest issue of Recumbent & Tandem Rider magazine (issue #20) has a photo on page 29 of a 'tana in a one single 'tana hardcase. This case is pre-padded. Disassembly/assembly is NOT a 10 minute deal. Be prepared to spend an hour for each process . . . and then whatcha gonna do with the empty case? Leave it in hotel/airport storage? Will you be doing a 'circle tour' and leave/arrive from the same airport? Will it fit in those small Euro cabs? Trains? Commuter planes?
Suggest, if going to Italy to at least take a short course in Italian . . . the word Pizza is understood and yes, many Euros speak English, but don't bet on it.
Have traveled with tandems without case, without S&S by air. Even without putting the thing in a box; wrapped it in piping foam, took off pedals and turned the bars wheeled it into the airport and tipped a Redcap to handle it as we had a 'prepaid' voucher for the bike. Put panniers on rear of bike and put stuff in it. Have also traveled with it in a big cardboard tandem box and got charged for oversized cargo. But check first with the airline on what their policy is on taking a bike (don't say 'tandem!').
If you'll travel a couple times or more per year by air with tandem, S&S would be a good option. Up until a couple years ago, Burley did make a tandem with S&S . . . look for a used one?
If you're going to blow big $$ and if that is not a concern, why not go all the way and buy a Calfee or ariZona carbon fiber tandem with S&S? Or get an Erickson or Bilenky or whatever custom built?
MSRP on the Rivazza is $4,000 . . . a huge difference in price from the others! With what you'd save you could afford to fly a couple more times to where-ever . . .
Decisions, decisions!
Good of you to do some research first!
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

vosyer

Take a look at the Bilenky website - they do a lot of retro-fit SS couplers on steel tandems, I have a quote for such right now on one of my bikes - Gary Bushnell may as well. I understand a retro-fit on a alum frame is not practical. So you could shop for a awesome deal on a steel tandem take it on a trip and see if that works and if not have is cut up when you get home. (TG), is right though, there are on a occation awesome deals on coupled bikes that come up - but not as often as a straight un-coupled tandems. So patience can work to your advantage - By the way the best deals I have seen on new coupled tandems was recently at R&E Cycles in Seattle for several their Rodrigez tandems.

TandemGeek

I think you may be referring to Dennis Bushnell... great Seattle-based builder who, coincidentally, builds all of the Rodriguez branded tandems and solo bikes. A custom Bushnell would have a similar price to a stock Rodriguez tandem when equipped the same way. Of course, with a custom build you can be sure the frame will fit exactly the way you want it to, you can specify the steering characteristics, and you can also have it fitted (braze-ons) and equipped (components) the way you want it as well, which usually saves you money by mitigating future component upgrades... something I call the Harley-Davidson syndrome.

Fastskiguy

Anybody out there have a steel santana tandem? Because if that bike rides nicely, one option would be to just get the se version and the couples and be in at about 4200$ (assuming the old website prices are right). Add 800 for the box and we're in a nice even 5000$. It's a lot compared to what I've been spending on bikes but it is a tandem and has the travel feature. Plus if we really went wild in the future we could get a bling bling non-travel tandem for riding around home and use the santana for travel.

We did ride the team niobium but it was a medium and we're probably looking for an XL so that made a difference but it seemed a bit flexy...maybe it was the size (our inseams are 91cm and 81cm)...or maybe if the tubes are the same on the XL it would be more flexible than the medium...

Part of me is on an "anti bling" rage...thinking about switching from my litespeed road bike to a surly pacer (well, actually switching the litespeed to time trial duty)...so actually the arriva SE might be just right. I'd like to hear any comment-so if you have'em, please post'em. Thanks

mudmouse

We just got an Arriva SE (sm frame) in November. We rode a Sovereign a couple years ago and loved how a Santana feels, so when we found the Arriva, we went for it. We can feel the frame flex and give a bit in hard pedaling. It's not a problem for us, we're just recreational riders looking for a comfortable bike for riding & light touring, and the Arriva fits the bill.

Another couple we know have a coupled santana for travel, but they prefer their more rigid alum. cannondales for regular rides.

Fastskiguy

I thought I'd reply and tell ya'll what we are planning. After a lot of thought we put a deposit down on a Sovereign SE stow-away in XL with the Santana case for a nice even 6500$

I really dig the sweet 16 wheels and the reynolds fork and the mechanical disk brake but we held off of them for a couple of reasons. One is that they are some spendy options-it would probably push the price up to 8000$ or a bit more and 6500$ for us is a lot, 8000$ is, well, more lot. And the second reason is that you don't get a big credit from the upgrade-as in the 850$ wheels will cost 800$ if you go with them vs. the standard shimano/FIR wheels. So it isn't really going to cost much more to upgrade in bits if we want to in the future.

The arriva was an option too because it has the same components, is steel, and would save about 1500$ And I guess it would be a little more resistant to dings than the aluminum. But it looks like with the couplers it would weigh 3# more and in the big XL size may be a bit more flexy than we want.

As far as the exotic carbon tandems, well, we just couldn't stomach the price. At least not yet-this could always change in the future!

Oh yeah and we wanted to get it at our local dealer who carries Burley and Santana.

So that is how it all figured out, I want to thank you guys for your help and opinions Hope to be able post some pics in a couple of months when it is bought, built, and delivered

biorider

A little late on this response but glad you made a decision. We're riding a steel Santana Cabrio triple with S&S couplers and have about 2,500 miles on it. We also ride a steel Burley Samba tandem that we ran with a Burley Piccolo until my son outgrew it, forcing us to move up. Our triple came with zero info from Santana except for a photocopied instruction sheet for the suspension seatpost. It was a letdown, compared to the Burley owner's handbook and Santana's marketing magazine.

Our dealer advised us against the hardshell case from Santana, recommending soft case(s) because they're more 'forgiving' when being loaded and can be stuffed with bike clothes after it's loaded. For storage of the case(s), the foam can be removed and the the case folded flat. We found loading instructions on the web for the case and from S&S for the couplers.

Most of our travel is with the Santana is in our minivan and I'm thankful for the couplers, 'cause a bike over 10' long is really tough to move unless you're riding it. I've found that a workstand is essential to use for assembly of the big bike. Other useful items are some rubber gloves for handling the timing chain(s) and the Park pin tool for slackening the timing chain(s) for removal.

zonatandem

Why 'slack timing chains' by pivoting eccentric?
A non-dealer approved method is as follows: Using a thin-bladed screwdriver, put screwdriver blade by chainring and pedal *backwards*, chain pops off.
Reverse procedure for re-installing chain (but have rear wheel up in the air so you can pedal *forward* to re-install chain).
If you can't remove chain that way, likely your crossover chain is too tight.

biorider

Thanks, Zonatadem. I've taken the timing chains off and reinstalled the way you've described, without the screwdriver, essentially derailing the chains. The gloves aren't needed either, but I guess I'm in my fastidious phase. And I'm working on two timing chains with the Cabrio.

Another note, make sure you get the cranks in the phase you and your stoker(s) are accustomed to. One ride I didn't, and my wife got cranky!