I agree - to each his own. While I'm no featherweight climber - I love to go downhill - which means I have to go uphill. There is no shortage of hills here - I can do 2400 vertical in 3 miles if I want However - i've never done that climb on the tandem. We did do 25k vertical over 461miles in cycle oregon though. No way would I have even attempted that ride with tubulars - even with all the support we had.

We have used calipers and V-brakes in the front and V-brakes, drum and disc in the back. Our preference hands down:

Calipers in the front, disc on the back for most applications .....except when touring loaded, then v-brakes and drum in the back.

$1,000.00 says you don't know much about Sheldon Brown or his wife Harriett Fell and wouldn't have a clue as to how they rode this tandem when Sheldon was still able to ride....

I spent a month this summer visiting family and we took our single bikes with us. I spent the entire month climbing hills all over Eugene/Springfield, up and down the coast range and in and out of the Cascades. I detest climbing but so far this year I have ridden over 3500 miles and climbed 131,000 ft, including one Century that finished at the top of Mt Mitchell. I have not done any of that climbing on our tandem, but I did 100% of it on tubulars, no support needed!

BTW, I also love descending, I have been over 70mph on two wheels twice, over sixty a handful of times and over 50 to many times to remember. Now that I am older and less stupid (notice I didn't say smarter) I try to limit my descents to a maximum speed of about 45mph.

Over 70mph a couple times? Pretty damn impressive. What RPM's were you pedaling in what gear?

Never been 70mph - hit 67.5 on the tandem once - but that's as fast as i've ever gone. I've gotten older but i've never grown up either

You are probably right - but why brakes on a Fixie?

Since everyone is talking about brakes, let me ask if this sounds reasonable. Note that we do not do any kind of mountain riding with the tandem as both my stoker/daughter and I much prefer climbing on single bikes. So there are no painfully slow uphills, or screaming fast downhills. In 2005 CDale went to Avid BB7 with 8" discs front and rear. Given how we intend to ride, is swapping both out to linear pulls like the Avid Single Digit 7 a reasonable swap? It seems from comments that there is plenty of braking power from the linear pulls. What do everyone think. Please note that this would also subtract over a pound of weight off the bike for very little money.

Single bike, running 54/11 spun out about 40, after that it was all technique and a very steep, long and straight mountain descent. Not hard to do if you can get aero enough. I can't do it anymore as I just can't get into that small a tuck anymore. I am more than happy to keep it under 50 from now until I can't ride anymore.

Stealing a phrase from the sportbike side of my interests.... "Because the street is not a track."

Yes, those who are all caught up in fixed-gear cult do tend to eschew brakes on their fixies.

However, I believe that a number folks like myself who happen to ride a fixed-gear (for whatever reason / purpose) and who have careers, families, and enjoy spending time doting on their grandkids will often times have at least a front brake on their fixed gear bike: perhaps a rear as well if it started out life as a road bike.

While it's true that you can jump/skid a fixed gear to an abrubt stop, doing so won't get you stopped as fast as or predictably as a front brake and it destroys your rear tire. Frankly, I'm not as concerned about trashing a $20 tire as I am of slamming into -- or being slammed into by -- something bigger than me.

Way back when, have pedaled a 116" gear (56x13) at 43.5 mph . . . both of us bouncing on the saddle; as the only mixed tandem couple and not willing to give an inch to several male/male much younger tandem duos on a slight down hill run from Oracle to Oracle Junction, for 11 miles.
Those were the days . . .
Have test ridden a prototype tandem (solo) with front/rear discs on downhill and hit the brakes at 30+ mph. Loads of 'stop 'n skid' power but considered it overkill.
Prefer our current setup, Dura Ace front calipher + Tektro Mini V-brake rear which provides all the power we need for downhills/traffic situations. Can ride this combo solo, hit just the front brake and instantly pop up the rear wheel. Feel quite safe with this brake setup.
Just our experience/opinion.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Waldo:

Given that Cannondale's current street tandem (low cost version) uses Cannondale's equivalent to the Avid SD-7; you are probably fine... Just remember the Travel Agents.

An alternative are Shimano R550s (or equivlents) which weight less and don't need the Travel Agents.

But why not go to calipers on the front on a new Carbon fork? ( I am also trying to get this through Parliament and get the Governor General's signature - Canadian equivalent Eh!...but have a Fox F100X on the wishlist for my ATB frame that is in conflict and higher priority)

So while I think you are NUTS to be replacing the rear disc, as you have pointed out it is YOUR money.

Carbon bars are nice on Aluminum tandems as they kill vibration in addition to carving grams off.

To answer a previous question - Stealth Cycling sells a carbon stoker stem...not sure who makes it for them...

Don
(Avoiding the tubular nonsense )

With a similar setup (caliper/V-brake) we also get all the stoping power that we need. However, ridding/descending on the central sierras of California, the rear disc is very handy. The rear disc also allows you to ride "safely" during heavy rain.

Stealth Cycling c/f stoker stems are made by Bob Davis, (ariZona Tandems), but as mentioned earlier he is ceasing operations at end of 2007 due to health issues.
We have one of his prototype c/f adjustable stems with a ti glue-on for the . . . mini garage door opener.

Anything else here? I was somewhat looking forward to hearing more about your experiences with disc brakes or the source for your data on discs. I suspect it is Dan, but just wanted to be sure as it would then shed a lot of light on why you hold the views that you do.

Given that throughout the 70's, 80's and most of the 90's most tandems were fitted with cantilever brakes, and from the 90's on cantilevers (to include the linear-pull variety) continue to be the default as the OEM brakes on the vast majority of tandems sold, I think one could safely say that yes, using some type of cantilever brake on a tandem that will not be used on challenging terrain will provide stopping power that is on par with the vast majority of well-made tandems in use today.

Are the Avid 7's the best option? Highly subjective and best addressed by teams who are already using them. I have Arch Rivals on my Ventana Marble Peak (solo bike) with the Single Digit MTB levels: very nice, almost as nice as the also discontinued Arch Rival Supremes which were also an excellent linear-pull cantilever brake for tandems, or so those who used them said.

Is changing out the disc brakes reasonable? Again, highly subjective and best addressed by looking in the mirror and asking yourself: "Will this increase the satisfaction and enjoyment I derive from my tandem more than anything else I could do with the same expendature of discretionary income and without any undue change in the level of risk I must already contend with as a cyclist?"

------------------

FWIW, this is our tandem brake ownership history as a 280lbs team. Our local on-road terrain is moderately hilly with local mountains that feature many, long 4% - 8% climbs/descents, and a few that hit between 12% and 20% but those tend to be short. Will will occasionally venture off to other locales where the rare, longer, steeper descents 'could' warrant supplemental hub-mounted brakes.

• '95/96 Santana Arriva: XT cantilevers with XTR shoes and pads. Seemed like they worked just fine.
  
• '98 Erickson: Campy Record differential calipers front & rear with supplemental Hope mechanical rear disc. The calipers seemed to be superior to the cantilevers and the Hope disc, although only installed and used a few times, did exactly what it was intended to do... create drag to slow descent speed on very long, steep and challenging switchbacks. No how, no way would that rear disc stop a tandem by itself even on a flat and level road.
  
• '98 Cannondale MT3000: Shimano XT linear pull / V-brakes. Fine for most single track, but we melted the minimal pads off on a fast fire-road descent and, well, that was the end of that for V-brakes on our off-road tandems.
  
• '00 Ventana ECdM: Hope 04DH 4-pot open hydraulics. Simply awesome stopping power and very high heat capacity for off-road use. However, we still succeeded in achieving heat-induced disc lock on two occasions.
  
• '02 Erickson: Campy Chorus differential calipers front & rear at first with Hope mech. rear disc / drag brake. Same as '98 Erickson: excellent rim brakes for our riding style and weight. Rear triangle modified to allow Hope disc change out for Avid BB Road in '04 as primary/sole rear brake matched with Campy Chorus differential front brake: best yet. 6,000 trouble-free miles with the rear Avid.
  
• '02 Ventana ECdM: Hope Enduro 4-pot open hydraulics. Same awesome stopping power as previous brakes in a smaller package and very high heat capacity for off-road use. However, these suckers have always squeeled like a stuck pig despite a variety of attempted fixes. Just haven't bothered to try other brakes and, well, it lets riders ahead know that we're behind them.
  
• '07 road tandem: Campy Record differential caliper front and either caliper or Avid BB Road in rear depending on how I feel when I built it up.

Many other brake and brake systems have been test ridden, worked-on, or researched over the years but these are the ones that we have selected for our own use and lived with. Guess what, these and all of the other brakes work "pretty well" when set-up per the manufacturers specifications, properly maintained, and used within their design limits. Rider experience, judgement, and technique seem to have a greater impact on brake performance than anything else, short of a screwed up brake installation. Some brake systems -- from certain cantilevers to discs -- are complex enough to screw up without trying hard.

Thank you TG for that insightful post. The reason I chose the SD7 was that I went to several tandem sites and saw that this was the brake speced on most of their "performance" tandems. I did notice that "racing" tandems tended to use a Dual Pivot style of brake. I will most likely swap the brakes out as I have already mentioned that our riding style is flat recreational rides of no more than 50 miles, no steep climbs or long descents. Even though we are 100 pounds heavier than you, I am sure we will not be stressing those brakes to their limits. Now I will just be patient and wait for a good snipe on eBay.

Besides that I can probably recoup the entire cost of the brakes and a bit more by selling the BB7+rotors on eBay also.

Just as an anecdotal on brakes and the demands of tandems...

There have been two situations where having only rim brakes on our road tandem were we (me) were flirting with a potential brake fade / rim heating problem:

1. Any time we get caught behind cars or motorcycles while descending steep and twisty mountain roads, to include our local ~2mi / 8% ave. climb/descent at Kennesaw Mtn.

2. After cresting Tepesquite Canyon road whilst riding between Santa Rosa and Solvang, instead of being treated to an refreshing and exciting series of fast twisties where we could amortize the last 30 minutes of climbing in 120* heat, we discovered that part of the road had not yet been repaired following severe weather and was dotted with hundreds of washed out potholes.

In both instances, instead of being able to let the tandem "fly" between corners where max braking would be used to control speed through the corners, the unexpected / unwelcome impediments created a situation where we (me) were forced to alternatively be on the front or rear brake all of the time to control speed without the benefit of fast flowing air moving across the rims to aid in rim cooling.

It has been these rare and unexpected situations, along with the occasional descent in the rain, that has compelled us to use the front rim brake / rear disc configuration on the tandem(s) that we'll most likely be riding when we encounter these high-brake demand situations.

If you never venture into the mountains, it's not really an issue. But, for those who do it provides an alternative to the tried and true methods of dealing with the unexpected heavy demands that put high heat loads into the tires of a bicycle, e.g., stopping mid-descent to let things cool off, hauling around a 2 lb Arai drum brake that's rarely used as anything more than a parking brake, or being unware of how heat loads generated by the rim brakes and tire friction can combine to unseat a tire bead in dramatic fashion.

Just some food for thought and some insight into why Avid rear discs have been embraced by many teams who do encounter mountainous terrain on a semi-regular basis.

We all have some stories to tell with braking . . . but seems we've al survived to ride TWOgether some more!
During one tour from Grand Canyon to Mexico, got caught up in a hell of a downpour coming down the Mogollon Rim near miniscule town of Strawberry. Had one other tandem besides us on the tour and although we only had Mafac cantis, and they were running cantis + Arai drum, we had no problem keeping things under control. The other couple, being a bit 'stouter' than us and a bit less experienced, had a tougher time on that wet descent than we did. On a real twisty part of the descent, ADOT (AZ Dept of Transportation) had tought it wise to install metal ADOT-bots (round metal pieces) so car tires would give off a loud noise to slow them down . . . not fun at all traversing them in a downpour, so we slalomed into opposite traffic lane to avoid them . . . Yipes! The best part of the descent was stopping at Strawberry's only restaurant. Owner had the fireplace going (this was late September and at about 7,000 feet altitude) and we hung our stuff out to dry a bit and warmed up with coffee and great pie!
Feel comfortable descending steep/twisty roads with the brakes on your twicer? Keep it that way.
If not, a third brake whether drum/disc or even a third canti can do wonders for your team.
Have used centerpulls, sidepulls, U-brake (remember those?), cantis, drum and discs on various tandems
and all work to varying degrees of satisfaction. Yup, besides 'go-power' tandems need 'stop-power!'
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Update:

Cannondale in their infinite wisdom removed the cantilever studs from their road tandem with disk brakes. So I had to call CDale for the part number, by the way it is A412. Then off to the CDale dealer to order them. That was on Thursday, they said it should be in the shop by Tuesday this week, at a cost of $3.00 each. Four are required. Not bad, but still a little nuisance having to order them instead of them being installed on the bike. Guess it saved CDale a few pennies not to have to install them and then made them a buck or two selling them aftermarket.

So next week AVID BB7 Disc brakes with 203mm rotors come off and cantilever studs plus Avid SD-7 go on. Will probably sell the Disc brakes to help offset the cost.

Still deciding what to do about wheels.

OK, so you lose a little over a pound of weight (roughly 2,5% of the total bike weight). Still: why bother with this swap? The BB7s work great - at least on our Road Tandem.

Agree. Seems a strange upgrade to me.

For my own weight saving I put the following on my T2000 tandem, in order of biggest to smallest weight savings (my estimation, not properly weighed as I looked up weights etc. on weightweenies before purchase). Best bang for buck is losing the adjustable stoker stem, followed by the tyres and tubes.

Large
X2 carbon fork
Replace adjustable stoker stem with ordinary stem (ITM carbon) + shim
Pro Race II 23mm tyres & Continental Supersonic inner tubes
Thomson seatposts (still to do)
Syntace carbon bars captain

Medium
Flite seat captain
Thomson stem
Light ITM aluminium bars stoker
DA caliper brake front
Time pedals (there are lighter ones but cost / weight / performance is good I think)

Small
Fizik seat stoker
Red Aluminium bolts for non critical areas only (Partially done)
DA deraileur rear (still to do)

In terms of handling, the X2 fork is more lively at slow speeds, plus you need to apply more torque to 'control' the steering, particularly when going over ruts or when out of the saddle. However this is offset by a much lighter-feeling more 'pointy' tandem. It feels like a single bike rather than a heavy tank to steer, which I much prefer. Other upside is I don't have a nasty brake hanger so I can get my stem low enough and it looks like a racing bike. Downside is that the front crank is lower. However this isn't an issue as I wouldn't go in for pedal grazing in turns on a tandem. Given the cornering clearance of modern pedals, I don't think it's an issue. Final downside is that it's more difficult to ride no-handed, which my stoker doesn't like, so not a big issue.

mrfish, see my other thread!

Fork was a big deal, and I did swap that. Brakes save more weight than your stem replacement, and was probably cheaper too, please read my comments above about our riding style. As a review, last Sunday was typical tandem ride, 21.5 miles, 228 feet ascent, no load, no panniers, just us and the bike. Discs are overkill, IMHO.

Already have a Thomson stem, and Ritchey Carbon seatposts, need setback and while I have a Thomson Masterpiece on my single and a Thomson Elite on my daughter's single, I simply don't care for the aesthetics of the Thomson setback seat post.

The Poggio saddles are long gone, replaced with a Selle San Marco Aspide Glamour and a Specialized Toupe Gel. Tires and wheels are coming. I have a set of carbon Zipp bars on my single and I also have a FSA K-Wing sitting on a shelf since last year. Will be swapping the 46cm AL bars with the K-Wing, when I find a round to-it and buy it.

We personally own 8 pairs of SPD-SL pedals (1pr DA, 2pr 105, 5pr Ultegra), I think I am set there.

Not directed at mrfish:

I am beginning to wonder about the objection to the brake swap. It has me wondering if we are just a peculiar tandem team. I mean, we make time to ride the tandem every week, but we spend most of out time riding singles. We do not neglect the tandem, but we also don't put 1000's of miles on it either. A specific, I have 3800 miles riding this year, only about 300 of those miles are on the tandem. We enjoy riding the tandem, but we love riding our singles. Is that odd? We don't think so.

I do not think it is odd. My wife and I enjoy riding our singles a lot. We have different metrics than you. We ride the tandem every weekend and average 40 miles and we typically ride it once during the week in the regular season. This year we took it to Italy for a week for 270 miles. Soooo....we average around 3000 miles per year on the tandem and another 3000 on singles.

Most people buy tandems to equalize abilities or overcome a handicap that allows the parties to ride together. If two people can already ride together on singles, there is less of a compelling reason for a tandem.