Hey All,

Last week I posted a thread asking about opinions on Santana's or Co-Motions's. We spent the day yesterday testing at my local tandem specific shop (Crank-2 in Pleasanton, CA). We tested all steel bikes (my preference). We have a used Cannondale RT-2000, which is a fine bike, but we have the itch for something new and shiny (and with a better braking and shifting system). We tested the Co-Motion Speedster, Santana Arriva and the DaVinci Joint Venture 700. We rode all the bikes on the same 5 mile route which included, flats, a couple rollers and a fairly steep hill.

First out was the Co-Motion Speedster. Real nice and fast but a bit twitchy (my fiance's (Kathryn) impression anyway). I liked it. A lot and so did she. I was really liking the STI shifting because our 'dale has non-indexed bar end shifting.

Next out was the Santana Arriva. Immediately both us really felt the plush feel of this bike. Just real solid and comfortable. Shifting and braking were flawless as would be expected on a new bike and like the Co-Motion, we didn't notice any substantive flex in the frame. NICE! We had a front runner.

I was skeptical about the DaVinci and it's ICS independent drive train. Immediately, we found it was easier starting since we're pretty new to tandem riding. Also, real solid feel to the ride. And probably most importantly, Kathryn was sold on the ride, even over the Santana. Me too, except for the ICS. The key is she needs to ride in phase with me and that wasn't a problem. We test rode another one (lighter components) and had the same results. Great feeling bike with ease of starting.

So, is there any reason why I should not consider what we think was the best ride of the three brands?

What were the wheel/tire specs of all the bikes?
What forks on each?

Were I to do your experiment I would have wanted to re-ride the first one or two at least, to reduce the effect of ordering - combination of experience riding and tiredness, both of which are likely to affect the comparison, although in different directions.

But to answer your question directly, you looked at three quality bikes. You rode them. One of them rode better than the other two. Minor componentry changes can come along down the road, and are likely enough regardless of your choice at this point. Unless you have specific intended uses for which one of them is unsuited I can see no reason to disqualify any of them. And you haven't mentioned any. While the ICS is not your standard drive train, it is made from commodity products (as I recall), and you can lock out the independent part, and still have a phenomenal gear range.

Go for it.

All 700 wheels. Carbon forks on all as well.

Did they all have 28mm tires too?

Sounds like you like the DaVinci. Like Webster said, you can always lock up the ICS, and still have 40 gears!

EDIT: Maybe it would be a god idea to try test riding the DaVinci with the ICS locked, to see what you think.

You both really like the DaVinci, so you really already have all the information you need to make the decision. I would eventually get a carbon fiber DaVinci tandem when/if my fiscal resources ever allow for it.


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Yes, sorry, 28mm tires. And thanks!

My wife and I went through a nearly identical experience about 4 months ago at Crank-2. We have about 1000 miles on our DaVinci now so I can give you FWIW my then and now take.
THEN
1. All the tandems felt a bit twitchy since we had a grand total of 20 prior miles on a tandem. When we took Bryon's standard 5 mile test ride I could feel the Co-motion turning in a bit faster on those mini-traffic circles.
2. ICS appealed to the contrarian, senior citizen geek in me. We have a 6 year-old grandson who we would like to put on the back some day and I thought ICS very appealing for the non-experienced stoker. This also applies to my twin adult sons - good bicyclists, but I don't trust 'em if you know what I mean.
3. Gearing was intriguing. We had just gotten back into cycling after a 20+ year hiatus and who would have thought we'd use all of those gears though?
4. My wife liked the color.
5. Even with the ICS we almost fell over on our first attempt to start on a slight grade.
6. We discounted what I thought might be very small weight penalty. I was a 190 lb. marathon runner so I'm of the "try harder" mindset.
7. Didn't have a real opinion on Campy versus Shimano although both our 1/2 bikes are Shimano

NOW
1. We love the bike. Our singles feel twitchy (and very rough riding) compared to the tandem. It can be a bit harder to relax in a crosswind or when there is a very small shoulder, but in a year or so I'm going to have to get an new single because of the plush ride of the tandem.
2. We like the ICS very much and I wouldn't think you would learn anything by riding a DaVinci with the ICS locked out, but the ICS can make the captain lazy and on any sort of a grade you've got to get your butt on the saddle and jump on it (and be in a low gear). My wife can't start the 40+ lbs of bike, my 200 lbs, etc. by herself (I won't tell you how this came to be revealed to me). If we were racing we would go with a convention drive train for a slight increase in efficiency and a slight decrease in weight.
3. We use the entire gear range. We're running a 12-27 cassette and this helps keep us in our cadence overlap. Since we're in our 60's this combo is good up to about a 10% grade at least until we get stronger. We can grunt up something steeper for a short while. You won't believe how fast you accelerate downhill thus the need for the 60(30) chainring
4. My wife still likes the color
5. See #2 above - We need to practice more on slow speed, small radius turns and on uphill starts. If the road is wide enough I've had to head downhill and make a u-turn.
7. Shifting - I really prefer the Campy shifter now that I'm used to it. An indexed FD would be perfect, but we use all four chainrings and as advertised I can use a good number of the cogs from each chainring. My moto is "When in doubt, go low" meaning don't be reluctant to go to that itty-bitty 12 tooth chainring. The Campy shifters allow me to move 2-3 cogs in the rear as I drop from the 24t to the 12t chainring. You'll appreciate the fast RD shifts: doing rollers we need to downshift quickly 3-4 times on the way up.

SUMMARY - They are all very good tandems. We like our DaVinci, but we would be liking any of the tandems you're considering. Good luck and hope to see you on the road soon.

Glad you got out to test ride.
Now go back and do it again with all 3 tandems . . . then decide.

You may want to project where you will be in the future - more demanding, stronger and more skilled at both handling and starting. However, today, you are interested in making a purchase and making both parties happy in the purchase.

I suggest evaluating total weight of the tandem and power losses in the drive trains. Quite frankly, I do not think that tandem weight makes much difference if we are talking a couple of pounds. However 5 to 10 pounds becomes more significant in climbing performance. With respect to drive trains (gears and chain), there are power losses in chain and gears. On a single bike, the losses may be 3 to 5% depending on gear combinations and other factors. On a tandem, it is greater due to the timing chain. And the captain, who theoretically has the most power, must transmit his power down a timing chain. If you add another mechanism that allows more gear choices and other features, there may be even more power losses and additional weight.

If the value proposition of more gear selection, independent coasting and ease of starting is meaningful today and tomorrow then any power loss and weight penalties (that may occur) will be worth the trade off.