CGinOhio

Hey Robert,
You seem very concerned about frame flex, though you guys aren't a heavy team. I know you guys have a good amount of miles under your belt, but I am wondering if your team's technique may be an issue, since all of the bikes you are considering are fairly high end and should be reasonably stiff. Are you certain your stoker isn't squirming around, or you aren't throwing the bike a bit? Just a thought to consider.
CG

zonatandem

Part of your issue with 'flexy' tandems could be you do not equalize power output when you hammer.
Seems captain could be overpowering stoker which will create tandem sway/tailwag.
Try pedaling 90 degrees OOP (out-of-phase) for a few weeks and see if it mitigates your flexy feeling issues.
Yes it's more difficult to stand together when pedaling OOP but we've seen it done successfully by a few couples; or you can alternate standing; or do like we do: use those gears instead.
Been pedalin' OOP for 3 decades and, obviously, we like it.
Just a suggestion.
Pedal on TWOgether!
RUdy and Kay/zonatandem

TXbikerider

Chris, we can ride without whip if we feel like it, but if we really want to open up, me especially, then it can be an issue. So maybe I do throw the bike around, I don't know, but it happens even when seated. Two main situations where this happens: (1) seated, when we are going downhill and I put it in the big chainring and try to max out the speed and get to spinning really fast--there's probably some bouncing on the seat involved there too, not just whipping side to side in the rear of the bike; (2) when I stand and stomp hard, pulling hard against the handlebars. Both these situations leaves stoker quite uneasy. Hence the focus on stiffening up. Remember, the old Santana we have has smaller diameter tubing than some of the new bikes do. To put it another way, though, when we tried the stiffer bikes last week, I could stand and not generate that whip (or in some cases, it was at least greatly diminished).

Zonatandem, a couple years ago we tried OOP for a few hundred miles and didn't like it, so reverted back. I felt like I was having to drag her around the pedal cycle (I liked a faster cadence), and there was also more, not less, whip. We found the same thing with the Da Vinci we just rode; when we weren't in sync, the bike got pretty whippy if we were pedaling hard.

TXbikerider

Zonatandem, rereading I think I wasn't clear on why I didn't like OOP. I felt like I was having to drag her in the RECOVERY phase of the stroke, so wasn't getting to recover. I know that doesn't make much sense--didn't to me at the time either--since with OOP she should be AIDING my recovery phase since that is the power part of her stroke. But that is how it felt. I think it is just that she was so much more naturally inclined to a slower cadence that her power stroke was weak and slow when I needed a fast turnover. I'm not sure though. Truth is, it might be worth another look since we've developed a lot as a team since those early days and she is now more comfortable with a faster cadence. If the Da Vinci is any indication, though, the OOP will accentuate rather than diminish whip when we are really stomping. Does that make sense? (You'll probably say, "Yes it does. It proves you guys don't know how to ride a tandem!" LOL).

Homeyba

I might respectably suggest that the "whippyness" you are feeling may be attributed to some other factor other than the frame. I'm a big guy and my tandem team easily out weighs yours by 150+lbs and I've ridden high end Santana's, Cannondale's and Calfee's. None of them flexed anything like what you are talking about. I do race my bikes so I'm not easy on them and a flexing frame would be a bad thing for me. One of my race team mates is a 6 time Ca. TT champion who is 6'4" and on the top side of 200lbs has a Calfee and he says it has no flex what-so-ever. As someone pointed out earlier, Calfee "custom" builds their tandems to the owners specs. I'm not sure how that works with thier Di Vinci frames but I'm sure they are not under-built and I have a hard time believing that a 300lb team is really going to be powerful enough to flex one of those frames, standing or not.

I don't want to diminish your experiences because I'm sure what you are feeling is genuine but maybe it's wheels or some other facter that is giving you that "whippy" feeling?

Open Lateral

Your original post describes us to a T. We decided on a Co-Motion Supremo and a Bob trailer. It is 2 minutes to hook up the trailer, and it doesn't affect the handling other than pushing/pulling on the bike. I did not like any bags/weight attached to the bike at all. Now we have our go-fast tandem with the occasional overnight touring option. We have not tried many tandems, but we knew immediately the Supremo was it. It feels like a longish wheelbase single bike. Very lively and responsive. It is very stiff, and the whippiness you describe may be more of technique. We are 300-310lbs. The bike is 32lbs complete. It has the Rolf wheels and belt drive.

zonatandem

Pulling on the bars while climbing is natural on a single and you can throw the bike all you want as you are riding solo.
On a tandem that kind of behaviour will affect that long frame more and stoker will feel the 'tail wagging'.
Try riding with a few other stokers (male of female) and see if these issues continue. Then switch with you being the stoker and see what you feel back there.
Stoker Kay has a tendency to pull on her bars when climbing; however when pilot pulls hard on the bars she lets me know about it.
From all the posts, seems like you need to improve your tandem technique a bit; make some compromises to keep stoker happy and enjoy the ride TWOgether.
Agree OOP does not solve all problems and is not for every tandem duo, but at least your tried it out!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

TXbikerider

Zonatandem, that **IS** one of the possibilities, hence my earlier question. i.e., maybe we could do more on technique and get a livelier bike as a result. But, having done about 7500 miles on the one we have, I think that is enough base to figure we probably aren't going to change that much. But if it were a choice of staying seated and smooth on a lightweight responsive frame vs. standing and stomping on a heavier stiffer frame, I'd go for the stiffer unless it sacrificed too much comfort over long distances, or speed/performance. Those are things mighty hard to judge on a short test ride, unfortunately.

Homeyba, if you are racing, you are probably stronger than me. You are definitely bigger. So it is truly puzzling that you don't feel any whippiness on a variety of bikes, because we did on most. I could accuse my stoker of being hypersensitive, I suppose, but even I can feel it sometimes in the front. I don't think it is the wheels because we have stiff 40 (48?) spoke regular wheels, not lightweight Rolfs or such.

BikeForums.net, do you have S&S couplers on the Supremo, i.e., is it a Supremo Co-Pilot? We could have tried a Robusta at the dealer but didn't bother when he said it would not take S&S and would be whippier than the Noventa which we thought whippy. He didn't have a Supremo. I like your idea of the trailer + a high performance bike. It may be the way for us to go. I also hear the advantages of panniers (lighter weight total system), but maybe that is somewhat mitigated if you go with a heavier bike in order to mount the panniers. Something to think more about...

Open Lateral

Hi, and no couplers on the Supremo. We put in some good miles on a Robusta demo, and we did not like the feel of the bike, plus the additional cost. My Stoker is a very good rider, very smooth and neutral. The Supremo is threaded in the seat stays and at the dropouts for panniers. We tried the rear rack/pannier combo on our first tandem which was a 45ish pound Burley, and I did not like the feel of that at all. So I wouldn't try it on the lighter Supremo. We bought one of those wing thingys that holds 3 bottles behind the stokers saddle, and I don't like that thingy either because of how the bottles affect the handling. So the trailer is nice. Weight is low and off the bike. Steering stays neutral. I forget it is back there sometimes when the road stays flat. We just carry a 16" spare tube in the trailer and that's it.

chichi

TxBiker, I think our wish list for a tandem was similar to yours................A sporty everyday rider that could be used for supported tours, credit card touring and "maybe" some self contained touring. We chose a Calfee Tetra with couplers and threaded bolts at the rear drop outs. (I have a Calffe DragonFly single so I was confident in the Calfee brand) We took delivery of the bike 10 months ago.

So far we ride the bike about 100 miles a week no problems (check)
A supported NZ tour no problems (check)
3 day credit card tour no problems (check)
Self contained is still a maybe........I would use a bob trailer for a self contained tour

As for your concerns with whipiness, Calfee will spec the tubing and wrap to accomidate your needs, if you are not happy they can rewrap or install new tubes. (Make it easy on yourself and specify the nude finish)

WebsterBikeMan

I've heard it said a few times that folks would use a Bob for self-contained. This works for some. If you are the sort that is experienced with lightweight back-country camping, or lightweight bicycle self-contained touring, there's a good chance you know how to keep the weight of your (usually not more than one day's) food plus gear below the 70 pound weight limit that is the Bob's rating.

Some folks would have things to say about learning to pack lighter if you can't do that. However there are others who enjoy their touring every bit as much, but might be carrying 90 pounds or more. On our one-week tour this summer we got away with something like 60 pounds per bike, before adding groceries, but we were sharing a four-person tent among us, and had a limited range of weather conditions to be prepared for, and we do have lightweight camping experience.

Bottom line - most folks that use a Bob for self contained touring carry some amount of weight on the bike - or else overload the Bob. You just don't need (or want) a pair of Arkel TT-84s in addition to a Bob.

chichi

I used Arkel T28's for a 3 day CC tour, room to spare and we may have been a little overpacked. However we did not need to carry any emergency rain gear. I Also have a Arket Tailrider. I think the Tailrider and the T28's would be more than adequate for a CC tour of any length. The Tailrider and the T28's and a BOB sounds like a good way to turn an everyday sport oriented bike into a self contained tourer.

I wonder If Calfee could build a bike that has two sets of the tubes that are removed for packing,
1 set being a livlier set for everyday riding the second set for the extra loads and possible whipiness of touring.

BTW we had Calfee build our bike with mounts for both the disc and caliper style brakes. We used the caliper brake mount for the rear rack it seemed to work fine.