Calfee's 250 mm(?) rotor with an Avid BB7
02-28-11, 12:28 AM
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Calfee's 250 mm(?) rotor with an Avid BB7
As I noted on the NAHBS pic thread, Calfee has a Tetra with an Avid BB7 squeezing a very large rotor. See enlarged pic here.
I thought maybe I was the last to know about some new development that had freed the Avid BB7 from its 203 mm limitation, but in doing a Google search, there is no information about this brake setup.
In doing a search, I came across TG's blog (which had the search terms) about 5 minutes after he posted it. TG thinks it is a 250 mm rotor.
I've looked at all sorts of rotors on Google, and I've not seen the exact match for this rotor.
It's not a Hope rotor that I can see, but on the Hope site I note they offer a Step Up Mount.
Maybe Calfee is using such an adapter, although the pic looks different than the Hope.
This is a mystery that needs to be solved! I'd like very much like the option of running a larger disc.
I thought maybe I was the last to know about some new development that had freed the Avid BB7 from its 203 mm limitation, but in doing a Google search, there is no information about this brake setup.
In doing a search, I came across TG's blog (which had the search terms) about 5 minutes after he posted it. TG thinks it is a 250 mm rotor.
...this Calfee tandem appears to have...a 250mm rear disc rotor paired with an Avid BB7 Road caliper,
It's not a Hope rotor that I can see, but on the Hope site I note they offer a Step Up Mount.
International Standard
We offer two mounts for international standard fittings.
HBIS20 – this mount lifts the caliper allowing you to fit a 20mm larger disc.
HBIS40 – this mount lifts the caliper allowing you to fit a 40mm larger disc.
We offer two mounts for international standard fittings.
HBIS20 – this mount lifts the caliper allowing you to fit a 20mm larger disc.
HBIS40 – this mount lifts the caliper allowing you to fit a 40mm larger disc.
This is a mystery that needs to be solved! I'd like very much like the option of running a larger disc.
02-28-11, 12:54 AM
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Even with a mounting adapter for the caliper it would require sending the frame back to Calfee for modification of the rear stay. Our Calfee barely clears the frame with the 203 disc.
02-28-11, 01:13 AM
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02-28-11, 05:42 AM
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Has the look of an EBC disc with the curved spokes.
https://www.ebcbrakes.com/mountain_bi...c_rotors.shtml
Maybe EBC has "team" discs for the downhill off-road guys and girls that they don't sell to the public.
PK
https://www.ebcbrakes.com/mountain_bi...c_rotors.shtml
Maybe EBC has "team" discs for the downhill off-road guys and girls that they don't sell to the public.
PK
02-28-11, 06:27 AM
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Has the look of an EBC disc with the curved spokes.
https://www.ebcbrakes.com/mountain_bi...c_rotors.shtml
Maybe EBC has "team" discs for the downhill off-road guys and girls that they don't sell to the public.
PK
https://www.ebcbrakes.com/mountain_bi...c_rotors.shtml
Maybe EBC has "team" discs for the downhill off-road guys and girls that they don't sell to the public.
PK
Interesting choice for this Tandem. A huge disc brake for high speeds (like downhills) and a max rear cassette size of 28t on a 2x10 set up.
02-28-11, 07:14 AM
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Sorry about that, yes 250mm on the front for a "team" works bike could be feasible, but I don't know if they even exist.
And for us I want to go to a 185mm on the rear...
FWIW, Formula now offer a 220mm, looks similar but the edges are different.
https://store.formula-brake.com/items...m-6-bolt-solid
PK
And for us I want to go to a 185mm on the rear...
FWIW, Formula now offer a 220mm, looks similar but the edges are different.
https://store.formula-brake.com/items...m-6-bolt-solid
PK
Last edited by PMK; 02-28-11 at 07:20 AM.
02-28-11, 07:43 AM
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Like I said, it "appears" to be about a 250mm rotor. It could be 220mm or it could be 255mm (same as Santana), but it doesn't look like the WinZip rotors that Santana has previously supplied.
If I was that interested I'd simply call Steve or Mike at Calfee and ask...
They've never been coy about the bikes they've built and what components were used.
As for the shapely stays, I believe that's a technique Calfee developed to accomodate the Gates Carbon Drive sync drives while maintaining a normal crank off-set. In fact, I'm guessing the left chain stay on that particular tandem looks pretty exotic since it has the Gates drive + the personal pan pizza-size rotor.
If I was that interested I'd simply call Steve or Mike at Calfee and ask...
They've never been coy about the bikes they've built and what components were used.
As for the shapely stays, I believe that's a technique Calfee developed to accomodate the Gates Carbon Drive sync drives while maintaining a normal crank off-set. In fact, I'm guessing the left chain stay on that particular tandem looks pretty exotic since it has the Gates drive + the personal pan pizza-size rotor.
02-28-11, 02:02 PM
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For a custom frame builder I am sure it is easy to make the frame and caliper mount fit whatever size rotor they want. They do not have to work with off the shelf parts. As for the rotor that could also be laser cut to the size and shape they want.
02-28-11, 08:28 PM
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A larger rotor may have benefits but the larger the rotor the more difficult it is to build a flat rotor.
03-01-11, 12:14 AM
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Whoa.
I have to send my frame in anyway, for some minor fixings.. I will inquire with Calfee. I have to wait yet another season though... since it's too late to get it done right now without missing up our ride schedule.
I have to send my frame in anyway, for some minor fixings.. I will inquire with Calfee. I have to wait yet another season though... since it's too late to get it done right now without missing up our ride schedule.
03-01-11, 12:49 AM
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The rotor got noticed at CyclingNews
Check out the rotor diameter on this Calfee carbon tandem!
Thankfully, the Di2 RD was given a longer cage, so as to handle the a larger cassette than 28t.
Check out the rotor diameter on this Calfee carbon tandem!
Originally Posted by Cycling News
The standard Shimano Dura-Ace Di2 pulley cage is traded out for a mountain cage to handle a wider gear range, too.
03-01-11, 05:19 AM
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The rotor got noticed at CyclingNews
Check out the rotor diameter on this Calfee carbon tandem!
Thankfully, the Di2 RD was given a longer cage, so as to handle the a larger cassette than 28t.
Check out the rotor diameter on this Calfee carbon tandem!
Thankfully, the Di2 RD was given a longer cage, so as to handle the a larger cassette than 28t.
03-01-11, 01:55 PM
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I wish we had the time to spend about two days at this show. We were blown away, had no idea, and a shame living ONLY 20 MINUTES AWAY!
The rear stay was modified, and the Ultegra long cage bolts right on Di2 to get the larger cassette.
I rode the demo Di2 at Shimano's booth, and wish I never did because the next tandem in our future will have this, or any bike for that matter, or no new bike in our future if we can't afford this option. Unbelievable. Stood on the pedals without lightening up, all the while pushing up-down on the front and sweeping 1-10 at the same time as fast as it would go, without missing a beat.
Don't try it if you don't plan on getting it.
The rear stay was modified, and the Ultegra long cage bolts right on Di2 to get the larger cassette.
I rode the demo Di2 at Shimano's booth, and wish I never did because the next tandem in our future will have this, or any bike for that matter, or no new bike in our future if we can't afford this option. Unbelievable. Stood on the pedals without lightening up, all the while pushing up-down on the front and sweeping 1-10 at the same time as fast as it would go, without missing a beat.
Don't try it if you don't plan on getting it.
03-01-11, 03:08 PM
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The rear stay was modified, and the Ultegra long cage bolts right on Di2 to get the larger cassette...
I rode the demo Di2 at Shimano's booth, and wish I never did because the next tandem in our future will have this, or any bike for that matter, or no new bike in our future if we can't afford this option. Unbelievable...
Don't try it if you don't plan on getting it.
I rode the demo Di2 at Shimano's booth, and wish I never did because the next tandem in our future will have this, or any bike for that matter, or no new bike in our future if we can't afford this option. Unbelievable...
Don't try it if you don't plan on getting it.
03-01-11, 07:09 PM
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The rear cage modification is easy and can be done on any shimano derailleur - we were putting short cages on XT's back in the late 80's. The front will require programming and cage modification which would make it much more difficult.
03-01-11, 07:28 PM
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That extra large disc rotor looks like a great idea! I wonder how much they'll cost 8 years from now when we can buy them dished to follow the spoke profile? Seems like the ultimate setup.
03-01-11, 09:25 PM
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While I have great respect for Craig Calfee and all that he have accomplished, I'm compelled to ask, "Why?" This is a road tandem, after all. Does anyone really need a 250 mm rotor? I think not. We have run rim brakes alone (Avid Tri-Align canti's, as that was the best available in 1998) on a road triplet (500 lbs. full-up with three riders) for many years with no issues as far as braking power or heat dissipation capability. We live in Colorado and have ridden this bike over many of the highest passes in the state, with total mileage in excess of 10,000 presently. The secret? Appropriate wheels, period. Deep-section aluminum rims provide all the heat dissipation required for safe operation, as shown here: https://sandsmachine.com/a_bil_t8.htm.
The Calfee tandem shown has Zipp aluminum/carbon clinchers on it; looks like 404's from what I can tell. These are perhaps the worst choice one could make for daily use tandem wheels, because the heat dissipation is significantly compromised by the carbon fairing bonded to the aluminum rim. Don't misunderstand me: my wife and I have ridden on Zipp 808 Al/C clinchers for several years...for time trial racing on flat courses! No issues there. Does anyone use wheels of this type in the mountains, and if so, why? They're perfectly acceptable for flat terrain and racing, but otherwise, I would argue the huge disc brakes on this bike are a solution looking for a problem. It might impress the ladies, but size doesn't always matter.
Dave Walker
PAKETA CYCLES
The Calfee tandem shown has Zipp aluminum/carbon clinchers on it; looks like 404's from what I can tell. These are perhaps the worst choice one could make for daily use tandem wheels, because the heat dissipation is significantly compromised by the carbon fairing bonded to the aluminum rim. Don't misunderstand me: my wife and I have ridden on Zipp 808 Al/C clinchers for several years...for time trial racing on flat courses! No issues there. Does anyone use wheels of this type in the mountains, and if so, why? They're perfectly acceptable for flat terrain and racing, but otherwise, I would argue the huge disc brakes on this bike are a solution looking for a problem. It might impress the ladies, but size doesn't always matter.
Dave Walker
PAKETA CYCLES
03-01-11, 09:54 PM
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Well that was my first impression. Why? That big rotor is kinda ugly on a slick road tandem.
03-02-11, 12:41 AM
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I am inclined to say... Why not?
I mean if you are not locking up the rear tire, there is still more performance to be had. Sure it would be overkill, but so are the brakes on a Ferrari.... or are they?
Going down White Mountain near the CA/NV boarder with extended 14+ percent grades, technical curves, bumps and undulations, my 203mm rear disc was much more confidence inspiring than our old rim brakes. Further, if you asked me if I wanted a bigger rotor, I would have said, "Yes please!"
I mean if you are not locking up the rear tire, there is still more performance to be had. Sure it would be overkill, but so are the brakes on a Ferrari.... or are they?
Going down White Mountain near the CA/NV boarder with extended 14+ percent grades, technical curves, bumps and undulations, my 203mm rear disc was much more confidence inspiring than our old rim brakes. Further, if you asked me if I wanted a bigger rotor, I would have said, "Yes please!"
03-02-11, 12:43 PM
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Sure looks like the 10" disk I have on my Santana.
03-02-11, 01:05 PM
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Got a photo?
This is what the one's I've seen look like... similar diameter but the cut-outs for rotor cooling & brake pad cleaning are very different. Frankly, for a 10" rotor the smaller holes that appear in the Calfee's rotor make more sense...
This is what the one's I've seen look like... similar diameter but the cut-outs for rotor cooling & brake pad cleaning are very different. Frankly, for a 10" rotor the smaller holes that appear in the Calfee's rotor make more sense...
03-02-11, 01:28 PM
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I've done two RAAM races as well as a number of other ultra races with Zipp 404's on my tandem. I've been through the Sierra's, Rockies and Appalachians on them. They are perfectly fine for that application.
03-02-11, 07:56 PM
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The "why not" question is easy to answer: cost, weight, and incompatibility with conventional components. If you need it, then OK, but I'd have to be convinced that anyone needs it. It's also a poor excuse for using the wrong wheels in the first place.
03-08-11, 12:25 AM
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Here are the answers to your questions;
* The rotor was purchased through another prominent tandem manufacturer that offers 10" (255mm) discs. We will shortly be offering a rotor that has been optimized for lighter weight, cooling, rigidity, durability and "good looks". The chief characteristic that impresses us about this rotor [the 10"] is its size!
* We fabricated adapters for use with our disc brake dropouts and Avid mechanical disc brakes
* 10" disc clearance is a no charge option on Calfee tandems (we've been doing this by request for years). To create clearance, we remove additional material from the chainstay, add material inside the tube, and wrap with carbon to create the requisite strength.
* 203mm is the largest disc that will clear Calfee tandems that have not been made compatible with 10" rotors.
* We can modify/repair Calfee chainstays to achieve clearance for 10" rotors (I'll return with a price).
* In the last 3 years, we've had one customer strongly request 10" rotors. After speaking with him about this particular requirement, we agreed that he could benefit from the 10" rotor and moved to fabricate the appropriate adapter. Now, we are happy to offer this frame option as well as the supporting hardware.
* I'm generally sympathetic to Dave's point(s) and we'll sell very few of these 255mm rotors. That said, if the customer does not care about cost, weight, and compatibility challenges and "feels" strongly that they contribute to an increase in performance and/or "peace of mind", then we stop pushing back and provide the solution. Ultimately, it is our position that some teams can benefit from this rotor size.
* The rotor was purchased through another prominent tandem manufacturer that offers 10" (255mm) discs. We will shortly be offering a rotor that has been optimized for lighter weight, cooling, rigidity, durability and "good looks". The chief characteristic that impresses us about this rotor [the 10"] is its size!
* We fabricated adapters for use with our disc brake dropouts and Avid mechanical disc brakes
* 10" disc clearance is a no charge option on Calfee tandems (we've been doing this by request for years). To create clearance, we remove additional material from the chainstay, add material inside the tube, and wrap with carbon to create the requisite strength.
* 203mm is the largest disc that will clear Calfee tandems that have not been made compatible with 10" rotors.
* We can modify/repair Calfee chainstays to achieve clearance for 10" rotors (I'll return with a price).
* In the last 3 years, we've had one customer strongly request 10" rotors. After speaking with him about this particular requirement, we agreed that he could benefit from the 10" rotor and moved to fabricate the appropriate adapter. Now, we are happy to offer this frame option as well as the supporting hardware.
* I'm generally sympathetic to Dave's point(s) and we'll sell very few of these 255mm rotors. That said, if the customer does not care about cost, weight, and compatibility challenges and "feels" strongly that they contribute to an increase in performance and/or "peace of mind", then we stop pushing back and provide the solution. Ultimately, it is our position that some teams can benefit from this rotor size.
I wonder how much the fabricated adapter weighs? I haven't found a weight on the Hope Step Up Mounts, which are CNC machined of aluminum.
As for the need to have a disc, the perspective from Northern California differs from Colorado.
We live in Colorado and have ridden this bike over many of the highest passes in the state, with total mileage in excess of 10,000 presently. The secret? Appropriate wheels, period. Deep-section aluminum rims provide all the heat dissipation required for safe operation.
Loveland Pass 2533 ft 5.8%
Juniper Pass 3,590 ft. 4.3%
Independence Pass 3,991 ft 4.7%
Trail Ridge 4,661 ft 4.8%
Cottonwood Pass 4,173 ft 4.2%
Monarch Pass 2,849 ft 5.5%
Northern California abounds in climbs (and thus descents), the Bay Area is just loaded with them, such that the Summerson book for California climbs is 300 pages. And many of these are steep. I know, because I look for climbs/descents that are moderate in both the Bay Area and Western Sierras to appease my stoker, and they are hard to find. California has 10 climbs of greater than 10 miles with grades ranging from 6.9% to 8.3%, and these often twisty. The Bay Area's Low Key Hill Climb series has 9 climbs slated for this fall, and the lowest save for Hamilton is 6.77% grade. This weekend I did the humble 60 mile Blossom Ride, and it had a long twisty 7.3% descent. So the brakes and wheels which are adequate for Colorado may not be in California.