TandemGeek

In racing, if you can advance on a descent as part of an attack with the expectation that you'll get out front and stay out front that's one thing.

What I'm sprecifically referring to is the see-saw effect that you get when a tandem (or a single bike, for that matter) that can't hold it's position in a large ride group when climbing drifts to the back, but after cresting the hill uses the draft effect of the large group and/or higher weight to advance back towards the front of the group... often times at a significant difference in speed and also outside of the double yellow line.. given that the group will be taking up the entire lane.

If there is suddently on-coming traffic or a blind curve, a tandem (or any other bike) outside the double yellow on an open course where the centerline rule is in effect will create a very unsafe situation as they try to stuff an 8' long bike into the peleton travelling at speed.

If it's rolling terrain a tandem will typically continue to advance it's position and pass on the next uphill as the single bikes lose their momentum and begin to climb in earnest... again, due to the draft and the added momentum that their weight provides.

Of course, once their momentum erodes, the tandem will have to get back into the group and will typically begin to drift back through the group, i.e., making the group pass the tandem.. again.

If you're on rollers and the tandem continues to do this, the group will lose it's tolerance for the tandem. BTW, this is also true at tandem rallies where a team that really can't run at the front of a group will use the group draft to move forward, but then jump in line and then create a gap when they run out of gas and begin to filter back.

Now, if you belong to a regular mixed group of riders that have learned to ride with tandems they'll usually learn to leave a lane for the tandem on rolling terrain and trade that off against those great, fast pulls they get from a tandem on the flats and light rollers. It's not safe to assume that this will be acceptable or welcome at a large event with strangers intermixed with you and your regular posse.

wheelspeed

Before having a tandem, we did the New York 5-Bourough tour on our singles. That was an event open to anyone who wanted to ride through NYC. That is, beginners, experts, and families were all riding the same course. As you approach and 8-year-old on a bike, you have no idea if they'll completely change direction instantly because they see some colorful bug on the side of the road. We saw evidence of about 4 bad accidents, but only two still had the bikes and riders visible. Those two were both tandems, and they were on downhills where they were probably going fast. I don't know what people were riding in the other two accidents, since we only saw the ambulance and a bunch of people but it was too crowded to see the bikes or the victims.
We love our tandem, and my wife doesn't even ride her single any more. But I'd refuse to take the tandem on a mob-scene ride like the 5-borough tour. I wouldn't be surprised if that ride one day banned tandems. There are certain cases where a tandem could be dangerous if the captain doesn't have any sense, and there's no way for an organized ride to weed-out the people with no sense beforehand.

PeFSQ

Here is the reply from the organizers on their Facebook:

TandemGeek

Awesome response by the Grandfondo Axel Merckx!!!!!

Hopefully our tandem brethern who participate in this year's grandfondo will make us proud instead of prove the point....

twocicle

Yes! Great to hear both tandem bicycles and cyclists will be allowed. Would hate to see a line up of tandems at the start with no cyclists attached

However the Rules & Regs are not updated yet:
https://www.granfondoaxelmerckx.com/e...nd-regulations
#10 Tandem bicycles: Due to issues of rider safety, tandem bicycles are not permitted on the ride course.

Are they going to collect 2x single entry fee ($190ea) for tandems?

B. Carfree

I feel compelled to relate my experience on a recent ride in my "backyard" (The Oregon and California Railroad lands of the Oregon Coast Range). The Oregon Gran Fondo was going on and their ride was contraflow to the direction that my wife and I were riding for a 100 km stretch of our 200 km ride. A large portion of these forest (okay, tree farm) roads are extremely narrow, as in fifteen feet total for both directions. We were constantly having to yell and wave to get the attention of the folks riding half-bikes on the wrong side of the road. They were lucky it was just a tandem coming along instead of a pick-up truck. I know they were instructed that the roads they would be on were open to traffic, but many of them seemed intent on behaving as though it was a closed road for the event.

Out of nearly 200 cyclists we saw, only twenty or so resisted riding on the right half of the road while we were oncoming and none of them were tandems. It would seem to be pretty ridiculous to ban all single bikes from the event and only allow the ten tandems to ride.

Then again, I sometimes wonder how safe our roads would be if we simply closed them to motorists for a few months every time there is an injury wreck on one of them.

conspiratemus1

Just what I was trying to say earlier, ....and got dissed for it. But better said than I managed so OK.
Actually when you read all the rest of the event's rules and regs it sounds like they have a lot of other antisocial behaviour that they have to legislate against, too. So who needs it?

rdtompki

Notwithstanding the tandem-specifics of this discussion, how does the emphasis of a granfondo on speed coexist with the lawsuit currently underway related to the supposed Strava-induced fatality? I've never ridden in one of these events, but I've developed an image of a true peleton maintained even on fast descents. Is the indemnification provided by the participants to the organizers consistent with this sort of (encouraged?) behavior.

In a normal organized ride (100K, century, etc.) I think we all recognize that tandems have to be able to pass on downhills and must do so safely. Any single rider must also recognize the need to provide safe passage for faster descenders whether single or tandem. Our tandem experience is limited to only 9000 miles, but I've generally found it very safe to pass a single rider or a small group of pacelining riders; passing a larger group or two abreast doesn't hold much interest for me although hanging back can be very hard on the brakes.

PedalPink

I received a different reply from the organizers - still banning tandems (see below).
At Michigan Mountain Mayhem, a road bike timing chip event, the photographer captured my captain and I smiling as we climbed the biggest hill named the wall. We had to navigate past single riders walking their bikes up hill. I never thought to complain and have them banned from next year's event.

"Hello Jacqueline,

Thank you for your message. We do appreciate hearing your feedback. Our rule to prohibit tandem bicycles from this year's ride is based on our experience from last year's event. Based on several incidences involving close-calls with tandem riders, many "one rider-one bike" riders expressed concern over overall rider safety with tandem bicycles in amongst the masses. At the root of their concerns, was that with tight packs of riders, the physical length of a typical tandem bicycle was unfamiliar to novice and intermediate riders, and that pace/speed of tandem cyclists fluctuates non-uniformly (versus that of a*"one rider-one bike"*rider) - i.e. it's our experience that tandem bicycles are generally slower going up hills, and significantly faster descending hills - relative to*"one rider-one bike"*riders. Our intention is to provide the safest conditions possible for cyclists.*

We examined the possibility of creating a "wave start" for different groups of cyclists, but that proved to be a logistical challenge with regards to traffic management. For this year, these safety concerns have led us to revise our rules and prohibit tandem bicycles in 2012, and re-examine this decision following this year's event. Your feedback is important, as it will influence the direction and rules of future events.

Regards,
Lisa"

TandemGeek

Very interesting...

Was that sent after 3:30pm EST on Friday when the posting to Facebook referenced by PeFSQ was made?

Just curious, as I've pretty much given up hope on ever understanding what really happened. It would be interesting to know just how many tandems participated in the 2012 event. The only first person account -- from a rider who was run off the road due to the presence of the tandems -- would lead one to believe there were only three and they were all willfully riding erratically, violating the rules of the road for the event, etc.

Guess we'll never know. What a shame that cyclists continue to prove that we can't even integrate different types of cyclists & bikes as a group, never mind making the argument that bikes belong on the roads with motor vehicles. Sometimes I don't think cyclists see the bigger picture here.

MNBikeCommuter

Unfortunately, that's been my experience too. Bringing bicycles into a very diverse community as a unifying tool just doesn't transcend all the personalities involved. I joined a local bike forum a couple of years ago thinking "this is a great resource and now I'm a part of the gang!" It wasn't long before the infighting amongst the fixies and commuters and mtn bikers and roadies (not so affectionately nicknamed "lycranauts" by the formers) quickly drove most groups of riders away. Those same personalities still persist out on the roads and trails..."it's all about me, and only me."

It's been a bit distressing to hear about this tandem ban, not that I'm in any position to participate in this event. I just don't want any momentum to start building amongst other rides. Is it legit to send the organizers my concerns even though there's no chance of being an actual rider?

waynesulak

I have found that often the majority group often not only has little tolerance for other groups but also acts as though they have a right to ignore other groups' access rights. The obvious case is motorist not acknowledging cyclists right to use the public roads. I have seen similar problems on golf courses and in some cases cycling groups not allowing cars access to the road. Unfortunately it appears to be a common human failing that we all have to deal with at one time or another.

Dean V

Maybe they should also ban overweight solo cyclists that are also slow up hills and relatively fast on the flat and downhill?

PedalPink

TandemGeek, it was sent to me on July 1, 2012 1:41:56 AM EDT
MNBikeCommuter, I was not in a position to actually ride this event this year. However, I wrote to the organizers because I might want to ride the event in future years (if they lift the ban). More importantly, I shared your concern about bans against tandems on other rides. I do a lot of different types of rides: lonely 600km with <20 participants, large group tours like 2,500 riders at TOSRV, timing chip and 12/24 hour races, and - of course - tandem rallies. I'd hate to think my riding might be limited.

Dean V, Yeah - I think you got my point!

To all, I think this is worth our discussion. We have many communities trying to ban bicycles and many auto drivers who want us off the road. Now we have fellow cyclists who want to ban certain subgroups such as tandems.

DCwom

After riding the 5 boro for 6 years on singles we took the tandem with the full knowledge that we would be slow and steady, the one caveat was that we bypassed the mass start and blended in with the pack further up 6th avenue. Large events like the 5 boro are always a defensive ride no matter what type of bicycle you are on because they are full of novices.

merlinextraligh

That hasn't been my experience. I'm a Cat 3, and we often ride our tandem on the local training rides, which are made up of a number of liensed riders, as well as just faster riders who don't race. We haven't had any issues, and I think most people appreciate the draft.

There are a number of tandem teams in our area that have won at Masters Nationals, and also race single bikes. When these people come out for the group rides on their tandems, the only complaining is how much the rest of us are going to suffer.

And while we haven't really had any significant tandem related issues, my experience has usually been that issues on group rides are much more likely to come from people that don't race, and want to "win" the training ride, than from the people who actually race.

twocicle

Anybody complain about how wide Eddy (aka the Cannibal) looks or that his presence creates a hazard to other riders?

To the point that generally tandems are slower on uphills... yeah, generally. Though I know of at least one non-doping team that passes singles and has caught a certain 7 time TDF winner (TBD) on a rather steep uphill (2003) in Colorado.

We don't bother trying to be the fastest on the flats. Going uphill is more our forte. Toot toot.

TandemGeek

That's fair. I probably painted with too broad of a brush and should have limited my experiences to riders in the North Georgia area whom we've ridden with on hilly routes where the see-saw issues and other more profound performance differences come into play.

As you note, when the roads are flat everyone loves jumping on the rear wheel of a tandem.

Club riders are also more tolerant /accepting of their own when they ride tandems and become accustomed to riding with a tandem and learn how to leverage the differences.

diabloridr

We've never had the juice to ride our tandem on "A" training rides, but one of the local racers used to captain his tandem with his 8 year old son stoking. They had enough horsepower and pack savvy that he could maneuver anywhere they needed.

Part of the racing culture on training rides is to for others to get familiar with you so they know you are a steady wheel and wouldn't do anything stupid. Until you get over that hump you'll be viewed with suspicion. I agree that the non-racers are more apt to "not get it".

P.S. that 8 year old caught the racing bug from his old man. He raced U23 Nationals this year.

DoubleDiamonDog

When tandems are outlawed, only outlaws will have tandems...

DKMcK 

The rules got updated, tandems are allowed....
https://www.granfondoaxelmerckx.com/e...nd-regulations

zonatandem

Got a message from Linda Wong today . . .
Tandems will be permitted in the Merckx Gran Fondo event due to many requests by the tandem community . . .
A 'thank you' to the organizers for reconsiering their previous ban on tandems!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

uspspro

I am all for having tandems allowed everywhere, but there are certain rides we will not ride on the tandem.

Mainly race training group rides. As mentioned the "slinky effect" disrupts being able to ride smoothly with the group. Then again we have hills and rollers everywhere.

Big organized rides are different (double centuries, centuries, granfondos, etc) since those events have riders of varying abilities and are not entirely condensed into one fast, tight peloton. Also racers are typically not interested in changing their riding style to accomodate a tandem.

rdtompki

Cool. Definitely the right decision.

Team Fab

Did anyone hear if there were any issues this year?